to have expected this woman to remove her tantruming child?

[musicboxwoundbyakey]

Went out for Sunday dinner with two friends. They were sat next to each other and I was sat opposite so my chair was in the middle (not sure if that's completely relevant but don't want to drip feed)

We were sat on a higher tier of the restaurant (3 steps). A woman with 2ish year old (could have been a little younger) walked up with a friend and her baby when her ds started to throw a huge tantrum and dropped to the floor right next to me.

As my chair was in the middle and not on the edge he really was right next to me screaming and crying and she left him there for a good few minutes and went to sit down before picking him up.

Now I was in a family friendly restaurant and don't care about children throwing tantrums or crying (it's expected) and with a tantrum its usually best ignored but I think in this situation she should have been quicker to pick him up and remove him from our table?

Yes, bringing up the nest generation of people who think it is acceptable to use aggression and violence to make their points/get revenge.

Exemplary parenting there.

Where should she remove the child to? Outside?
Have been there and been soaked. If the tantrum continues then it continues in the car, if it's more than a couple of minutes then I go back in, pay up and we go home.

I've had more than one meal cut short by DD - no tantrums, just bored twitching - and been as jealous as hell of child-free friends tucking into their three-course meal and leisurely coffee while I walk DD up and down the street for ages fuelled by the prawn I ate before the I'M BOOOOOOOOORRRED MUMMY started - but that's kind of what comes with the territory with a small child?

When I want to ensure a full meal I get a babysitter; when DD gets a bit older she'll be able to sit through a lot more.

Doesn't mean they might not have SEN. You're simply making that assumption. Many children with disabilities are already exhibiting behavioural problems at age 2.

I know that but it doesn't mean there is - and at this age chances are more likely it's not.

Not all bad behavior is down to SEN.

In fact IME of people whose DC have turned out to have SEN - they were often the most likely to be aware of their DC behavior impact on others and most likely to have appropriate strategics for dealing with it - including removing a DC from an over stimulating environment till calm.

Those condoning harming the child are in the wrong.

The parents who don't make an effort to calm the tantrum remove the child are wrong (although not as wrong as those who harm the child of course!)

Yes children tantrum, the important thing is that parents are seen to be making some effort to minimise the distruption that causes for others, especially in a situation like a restaurant where people are paying to try to enjoy themselves.

Those condoning harming the child are in the wrong.

Of course they are - and I've never encountered anyone who has even tried to do that to a DC.

IME most people are tolerant, amused or helpful a very small number aren't - and they have always been rude to me or DH and there ahs usually been some other adult around to make me feel o.k about the situation.

I expect the way she dealt with it was based on months of experience of how to keep the noise and disruption to the absolute minimum.

Had she picked him up earlier it could well be that the screaming would have gone on for a lot longer or tablecloths would have been grabbed.

You don't know. You shouldn't judge.

If she isn't easily able to handle her child, then it might have been the first time she dared to go out in public. It takes a village to raise a child and all that. You could have supported her instead of tutting.

I know that but it doesn't mean there is - and at this age chances are more likely it's not.

So it's okay to be judgey, because after all, they're 2 and loads of 2yos tantrum, so no point even considering there might be a disability or SN?

Oh, you're charming.

'I would have told the mother exactly what I thought too.'

If I had been that mother, I would have laughed in your face and then disbanded with any further actions to attempt to mitigate disruption to your meal.

Agreed Starlight. I've long ago abandoned excusing DS's behaviour by explaining his disability to people after the nasty comments we've gotten.

It doesn't really matter if the tantrum would have gone on for longer if she had picked her child up.

It wouldn't make a difference to anyone else how long the tantrum continued for if the parent was doing their job properly and ensuring that it didn't cause a disturbance to anyone else.

What makes you think it's ok for a parent to make someone else put up with their child's tantrum just so that they themselves don't have to put up with it for as long?

I don't let my toddler have tantrums, or refuse to eat, or refuse to wee etc.

Sadly, none of these things are within my control and happen anyway.

^How do you stop a child suddenly tantruming? Even if you pick them up and remove them the second it looks like it's starting, there may be 30 seconds of tantruming as the parent leaves the shop/restaurant/café. 30 seconds is clearly enough to wind some of you miserable fuckers people up!

I don't have children but I do understand that toddlers, not older children (SN aside), do not know the social rules and that it's rude to get cross loudly in Starbucks.^

Agreed. Miserable curmudgeons.

I think it also needs to be remembered that a child (SEN or not) tantruming can also cause issues for other people with SEN (or just sensitive to noise), I was out with my autistic nephew once when a child was left in a restaurant tantruming and that additional noise led to him having a meltdown himself and having to leave. He was just about able to cope with the normal noise of the restaurant but that was too much for him.

It isn't easy, and the respect and patince needs to be a two way thing but I think if it is clear that it isn't going to be a quick couple of minute thing then to try to get the child out of the situation until they calm down is generally going to be the best for everyone

AliceinWinterWonderland I have 3 DC and know loads of other people DC - at 2 IT IS NORMAL TO TANTRUM - it is Not an indication of SEN.

DC with SEN are also capable of behaving - they don't ALL tantrum in public.

If there are no indications of SEN and the parents say nothing why it it so odd to assume the DC is NT?

I don't even have a problem with NT young DC have tantrums in public - it happens - mine have done it very spectacularly it's embarrassing and with 3 DC by myself bloody hard work to deal with.

But you don't just leave your DC at the foot of a stranger eating a meal and sit down and ignore your own DC with no explanation. I'm astonished that can be thought of as normal behavior.

Rubbish, if a parent picks up a tantrumming child and removes them, there's no problem. Leaving them to either run amok or tantrum in a restaurant isn't fine.

Unlike Candy, I have children and like most here probably had to deal with this at some point. A restaurant s no lace for tantrumming kids.

I completely agree Sirzy.

My ds has sensory issues caused by ASD, and while he would cope with a tantruming toddler now that he's older, he would have become quite distressed by it if it was happening right next to him when he was younger.

I've been accused of being disablist for pointing this out before though.

I remember DS having a spectacular meltdown because he wanted a birthday cake when it wasn't his birthday. Tuts all round the supermarket for doing the right thing and trying to teach him social conventions.

He was still screaming at the checkout so DH carried him out to the car.

Looks exchanged, smirks eye rolls and, "five minutes with me would sort him out" implying some physical abuse

I had a nice loud conversation with the checkout person about how ironic it is that autistic people are presumed to have no empathy when NT adults can't understand that it's not much fun for a child with difficulties or their parents. Twats.

The very least she should have done is apologised. If there was a reason she couldn't remove the child she should've explained because her child's behaviour was directly affecting someone else. It's not rocket science.

In response to the original op...the mother should have removed the child from next to you.I have witnessed countless times kids behaving badly in restaurants.I've had a little one repeatedly come over to our table with food,toys etc,the parents sat there smiling at how adorable their child is.No its fucking annoying and we have come out for a nice meal as a family,my kids are sat nicely so make yours.Also on a train,all I heard was "Annebel,sit down,Annebel,if your going to stand up be careful,no Annebel don't get out of your seat,ok Annabel but don't go far,Annebel slow down,where's Annabel?"At FULL VOLUME.Drove me mad.Just make the girl sit down! Take crayons,toys,whatever just be quiet! This is not the kids fault but shitty shit parenting.Sorry about that,rant over.I have no idea how to spell Annabel either,sorry.

I have 3 DC and know loads of other people DC - at 2 IT IS NORMAL TO TANTRUM - it is Not an indication of SEN.

I didn't say it was an indication of SEN. I said it would be nice if people had the courtesy to understand that the child causing the disruption, even if they are 2yo, MAY have SEN, even if that is a popular age for NT children to tantrum. See the difference?

If there are no indications of SEN and the parents say nothing why it it so odd to assume the DC is NT?

Because a lot of children may appear NT... until a meltdown. And it's not my job as a parent to inform all and sundry that my child has a disability. Why should I have to explain my child's medical problems to other people in a restaurant?

But you don't just leave your DC at the foot of a stranger eating a meal and sit down and ignore your own DC with no explanation. I'm astonished that can be thought of as normal behavior.

I never once said that it was handled well in that regard. Read my posts again, if you think I said that. I didn't. Not once.

I simply posted in response to someone saying basically "well if a child tantrums and has SNs I might be more understanding." Because you're not going to know if a child has SNs. So again (sigh, for the millionth time in the last few weeks) is it really so hard to simply give them the benefit of the doubt and just be more understanding just in case?

I didn't say anything to the little lad either,he was very cute ha.

Why would a parent need to be given the benefit of the doubt if they are leaving a child to tantrum at a complete strangers feet.

SN is irrelevant here. We don't need to consider whether the child has SN or not because whether he does or he doesn't, he shouldn't be left tantruming at someone else's dinner table.

Why do we need to think about whether the child MAY have SN when whether they do or they don't, the solution to the problem is exactly the same?

I used to let DS play on my phone while he was getting used to eating out. And got dirty looks for not interacting with him.

FFS, eye-contact and conversation was hard work for him and he did it all week. He was entitled to relax on a Sunday for a few hours at four years old, same as every other person in the place.

FFS, if you're going to respond to my post, at least READ them.

Read my last post. Process, THEN respond. It'll save loads of time and aggro. seriously.

'Why do we need to think about whether the child MAY have SN when whether they do or they don't, the solution to the problem is exactly the same?'

Absolutely agree. Better understanding, education of the public in special needs. Priorised spending of taxes on respite, education, training, childcare, personal assistants and accessibility for families who have a child with Special Needs.

It is YOUR responsibility. It is SOCIETY'S responsibility to enable families with children who have disabilities to live their right to a 'normal' family life. If the environment is unsuitable, campaign for facilities. If your tolerance is unsuitable, educate yourself.