To credit MN for the way I handled this rude woman at the shops?

[Primafacie]

... When I felt a bit hurt, humiliated and angry at her comments?

I had an encounter this morning which up till now I thought only ever happened on Mumsnet :)

I was food shopping (M&S, not that i think it's relevant but so I am not accused of dripfeeding) with my DCs (aged 2 and almost 5). I always park their scooters by the store entrance (on the inside), which itself leads to the inside of a shopping mall, and is guarded by a staff member. We (and the store) are in a very safe, family friendly area.

As I was heading for the tills, DD nearly 5 asked if she could wait for me by the scooters. I said yes, as she is very sensible, I was only going to be a few minutes, and in my own risk assessment, this is not a risky situation.

Two minutes later, I emerge from the queue with my shopping and DS in tow. A woman (I am guessing around 75, again not really relevant but don't want to DF) is talking to the security guard by the door, pointing to DD who is waiting by the scooters. She sees me and says 'is this your child?' Conversation then goes like this:

Me: 'Yes she is'.
Her: 'I really don't think it is advisable to leave your child here, anyone could have kidnapped her'.
Me: Rrright. Well, I disagree,and I think she is perfectly safe here.
Her: but you are wrong. Anyone could have taken her. This is really dangerous.
Me: Well, that's your view. I happen to think we live in a good society and I don't see abductors and paedos everywhere.
Her: but you are wrong, you see. She could have come to harm.
Me: so you have said, several times. Look, I disagree with you, and I am not interested in your views. I didn't ask for your opinion. When I was her age my mum used to send me to the shops on my own. Now please leave me and my kids alone.
Her: Happy new year.
Me: and happy new year to you. Now please can you stop following me?

All this without raising my voice, or stopping smiling :o

All the while she was trying to get the poor security guy roped in to tell me off - to his credit, he never opened his mouth.

Still feeling a bit offended, but meh - hardly the end of the world.

So, thanks MN. Can I get my shiny badge now?

As far as I know, security guards aren't employed to look after people's unattended children.

I thought of you OP, when I was in Sainsbury's today. I left my DS, almost 4, alone in the toy aisle as I dashed to the fruit section to get some tangerines.

I swear, the Sainsbury's staff are probably still talking about me. I flew there like a bat out of hell. Practically pole vaulted over a child, elbowed a meandering man out the way and pushed a roaming trolley out of my path. I was gone about 50 seconds.

It really did confirm to me that Y really are BVU.

Life and I am the U one?

If your DS can't handle it, then don't leave him. Above all, don't just forget him somewhere. That could be distressing for both of you.

OP sorry been busy all day and come to see the thread has changed somewhat! The end of my last post was meant to say YNBU to ask her to stop following you out the shop.

Life I have to be honest I'm wondering why you did that if you found it so distressing!

Penelope, I have enjoyed your posts and yes, I may be wrong in my risk assessment. I can't find the relevant statement in the link you posted - please do you have a page reference? All the statistics I had seen so far had been to the effect that the risk disparity (between car deaths vs murder) is extremely vast. I am always willing to reconsider my position, based on evidence. Thank you

Sorry, when did i say my DS can't handle it??? He was absorbed in looking at a ninja turtle. I said 'stay here', i will be thirty secs'. He nodded!

I then ran, at speed, to get the tangerines. I recognise the risk is exceptionally low, hence being prepared to leave him for under a minute, but the consequences of the risk being realised, is so truly horrifying i.e. my boy being taken from me, that it means I try and make our time apart in a supermarket no more than a minute.

Parenting advise from the OP? Hmmm, no thanks!

Life's post utterly resonated with me.

You give them what felt at the outset to be a little extra space and then reality bites and it feels like a chasm, then you utterly panic (which you hide).

Perfectly normal.

If we are going to talk risk assesments then you have to do it properly.

So you have to consider ther level of risk - so is the risk of a broken nail or death? and then you have to consider the likelihood - unlikely through to likely. You then take the appropriate steps to bring the combined "number" down to an acceptable level.

So, for me - on a scale of one to five. Level of risk - Abduction/murder = 5. Likely hood - 1. So thats 5 x 1 = 5. In the work place that would be an unacceptable risk - anything above 4 i unacceptable and steps should be taken to bring the level down = so either changing the level of risk or the likelihood.

So you cannot change the 5, the only way you can bring the level below 4 is by having the likelihood taken away - so that mean, it could not happen - 0 x 5 = no risk. How would you do that? Some thoughts: Keep your child with you, make sure your child is in visual contact at all times (but even then someoen could rush and take child before you could do anything - i suspect that would be highly unlikely, but a zero?), ask security guard to watch your child (taking the piss) so really the only real way of reducing the risk to an acceptable level is to keep your child with you. Marks and spencers = manic busy, I wouldn't do it - my DD is 8. I will often let her go and sit on the chairs near the tills in local supermarket as it is not busy and chairs no-where near front door, marks and spencers - no way its just too busy.

LEM indeed.

Blimey,at 8 I was going off to town on the bus on my own with a friend! I find it astonishing how much things have changed in a generation. Since the rate of abduction has not altered, it is entirely down to perception. There is no reasonable or unreasonable. Though I'd venture to say that in an unpredictable situation (being separated from a parent in a crowd), the 8 year old used to going to town alone will be at less risk than the one who has never been out of sight of her parents...

johnny, i much more articulate way of conveying what i was trying to say. Thank you.

LEM, your post is so relevant and useful to this discussion. Sadly i think it will be glossed over.

Life, I don't remember asking for your parenting advice either. Quite the opposite in fact.

LEM, I appreciate what you are doing but I disagree with your figures.

Above all, I think it is sad that as a society we have massively cut down on our kids' freedom in order to make ourselves feel like we've addressed a risk which is so tiny.

People keep saying 'why take the risk?', like the risk is completely pointless. But to me, it is not just about a single shopping trip, it is about changing rooms, public toilets, walking to school, going to the parks, scooting down the street, having a drop of alcohol, going on sleepovers, etc. I do feel sorry that my kids will not experience such freedom, and instinctively I fear that this will affect their development - their ability to understand danger, to make executive decisions, to be alert to their surroundings, to discover the world on their own terms. I think children are losing out, and it is my choice to give my children that little extra autonomy when they can handle it.

When I see 5 year olds in pushchairs or with dummies in their mouths I don't say anything, but to whoever said earlier that at 4 my DD is 'still a baby' - actually no, she really isn't.

I'd agree with all that LEM, but in the OPs case this was for what, Two minutes? And everything was fine.

She was already on the way to the till when her DD asked to wait by her scooter.
The M&S food halls I have used (only two, I'm not made of money) have the tills on the way to to entrance/exit, same with security guards.
She doesn't say her DD was out of her sight.
She knows her own DD, so knows whether she can be trusted to stay where she is told.

So to the OP, the level of risk was acceptable. Maybe to you it isn't. But without being there, none of us can assess the risk for the OP. And I for one am happy to trust another parent to make her own call for her own child.

I don't have a problem with the lady commenting, but she should have left it after the first reply, not badgered the point.

I think maybe that my 'lifestyle' changes my opinions on this sort of thing. As I said before, had we have moved to Germany after Cyprus then DD would have started school there and we would have chosen a German School over a Brit one. That would have meant that DD was walking to school, maybe 15/20 minutes, and all her classmates (most likely) would have been doing the journey on their own

Now surely that is far more dangerous than 2 minutes in a shop, but completely acceptable to a whole nation. Why on earth is that? Why is it not the norm in the UK?

No OP, your 4 year old really isn't your baby, is she?

You don't agree with the figures? Be honest, do you understand the post?

As for your comments on risk. I am honest, I have bugger all idea what you are going on about. Sounds like daily mail tosh to me.

It's like the lottery. The chances of winning are infinitesimal. And yet, many still play. I do. Why? Because the consequence of winning is bloody fantastic!

So why not apply that logic to your children. The chances of something bad happening if you leave your very young child (4 yrs old ffs) alone in a shopping centre is very small. But the consequences of that happening are beyond comprehension so horrifying they are.

Could you be any more patronising?

Life if you feel that strongly about it I am not getting why you have done something pretty similar?

I'm a bit confused.

because children are never lured away from their parents in shopping centres are they................. :(

Why not apply that knowledge? Quite simple: because if children are not exposed to managed risks, they will not acquire the skills they need to be functioning adults. You must take risks as a parent, it is your job. You may disagree with the op's assessment in this case, but if you think you can eliminate all 'avoidable' risk in your child's life, you are doing them a serious disservice, anduultimately out them at greater risk through their inexperience and lack of ability to take initiative. At some point, your child will go out in the world without you. If you have over-coddled them, it is st that point that you really need to start worrying.

*and ultimately put them at greater risk. Bloody phone!

I think if we applied risk as if it was the lottery, then ALL our children wouldn't go to childminders/nurseries, we'd ALL homeschool, we'd ALL make them play in the home/garden at all times, we'd ALL kick our partners out (and keep our kids from everyone else) and so on.

Because if it's like the lottery, then there is just as much 'chance' that the nursery worker, teacher, father, mother, relatives, friends want to hurt our children...and as we know, most abusers are known to the child... So actually the 'chance' there is higher...

Second to the safety issue is the fact that the op was quite rude in a way that i'm not sure was needed in the situation...

op you brought up the Bulgar tragedy, with respect, i would just like to point out that there were many adults who wished they had intervened at the time who didn't. It is better for our dc safety to encourage an environment where others feel able to intervene ( within reason ) if there is scope for concern.

I think the lady may have been showing civic concern. You could disagree with her privately while thanking her and moving on with your day- no harm.

You didn't, you were quite... I suspect defensive.
I for one would not feel proud or expect to be rewarded for being rude to someone who showed concern for my dc.

I agree with whoever it was who said upthread, that the lady deserved an award for saying Happy New Year to you.

There is a difference to all the above risk taking to leaving a four year unsupervised by the door in a supermarket.

Or maybe wait till they're a little older before putting these object lessons into practice?