Friend, her DCs, and me 'punishing' them unfairly.

[youarewinning]

Had my friends dcs (8&10) last night for the night as her and her DH had a child free family event. I'd booked cinema as a surprise.

She stayed for coffee when she dropped them off and kids went to park opposite to play on DS (9) remote control car he got for Christmas. I tell them to come in at 3pm as we're going out. Youngest tried to negotiate but I refused to engage and said 3pm please. Friend got a little defensive saying she always tells them 15 minutes earlier than she wants them in as it gives her negotiation room.

Anyway friend leaves and I get things ready for trip. DS comes in at 3pm and says the other 2 said they could stay out as it wasn't dark and their mum doesn't mind them being late.

DS is very upset (has SN and these things do upset him more than others) so I calmed him and gave him a snack. At about 3.20 I thought I ought to go and get the others as we needed to leave at 3.45. As I'm getting my shoes and coat on they come back. I ask them to go to toilet and get coats etc as we are leaving in 15 minutes. I also said to make themselves a drink. DS is finishing his snack at this time and youngest asks for one. I said no time now as late back but I had snacks for them. She gets in a strop and storms off. Tell other 2 to ignore her and get ready as we have to leave. Then finally persuade dc2 she won't drop dead of starvation in next half hour and we need to leave. By now it's nearly 4pm. Film starts at 4.15. Get to town at 4.10pm and park and then I tell them what surprise is. They were very excited. DS asks if we can get sweets but I said too late now as running late but I had some chocolate and crisps and a drink each in my bag. Walking up stairs I hear dc2 start slagging me off to my DS. DS shouted at her so even if I'd not heard the whole cinema then knew about it!

I tell her not be so rude and she should have done as she was asked if she wanted things to be her way after.

I'm not a teller, or a rusher etc, more a natural consequences person. So just kept going on with plans treating all 3 dc equally.

We went to Burger King after and they all slept well. Friend collected them at 10.30am stayed for a coffee and left about 11.30.

She rang me about half an hour ago telling me both her DCs were distraught, why would I refuse them food and drink, I should have gone to find them to come in when they were late for the 'curfew'.

I just said they were not refused, they choose to ignore the curfew and therefore had no time for snack, they had food at the cinema, and a Burger King. I then said her youngest had been quite rude to me and about me.

She then said I 'knew' when she gives her girls a curfew it was always 15 minutes earlier than they actually needed to be in/ she wanted them in to allow for them to negotiate later and/ or be late. (What I've witnessed is the youngest arguing over everything times she's been given for most things and her mum agreeing to a different time). Therefore she feels I punished them unfairly.

I pointed out she was there when I reiterated they needed to be in at 3 and they chose to come in nearly half hour later and they were not punished.

So who is right here? I'm left feeling like a prize bitch but yet feeling there wasn't much else I could have done other than make us late for the film?

Sorry to post and run my internet went down.

To clear a few things up:

The 15 minutes is that if she wanted them in at 3 - she would say 2.30, so they would ask for 3, she can say 2.45 and knowing they'll be late they'll be in at 3. She doesn't go out and give them a warning - where they live they can play further afield.

My DS SN mean he often he needs specific timings and will stick to them religiously. He's been doing much better at 'surprises' lately so I've been able to do this as long as it's something I know he wants to do iyswim? The reason I wanted it as a surprise is it's been fully booked for past week - we have tried to go as a group - and thought it would be nice for them to have the trip out and easier for me as they were occupied.

I didn't cancel Burger King yes it was only the youngest being rude about me, it would punish the other 2 and I would have had to cook them all something at gone 6 and didn't really have food in to do this.

This friend is a very close friend. As I said in my op I know her dc2 is demeaning and negotiates on everything. She chooses to parent that way but thought as I made it clear 3pm as going out they would adhere to this. I assumed refusing to engage in negotiation would make it clear - obviously not

I often feel sorry for her as she is or rather has been more so in the pays manipulated by her DCs but the past year or so she has got on top of it and started to mean what she says.

The older dc has been messaging my DS on his iPad. DS knew nothing of what my friend said to me. Apparently dc1 told DS she told her mum she was upset because the younger one had said she had to stay out with her and if she didn't she'd tell her mum she was being mean. The reason she was upset was because she'd missed out due to her siblings actions. Her mum apparently defended the youngest and her dc1 thinks her mum is wrong.

Guess my thoughts that dc2 rules the roost has been correct for the past 6 years of friendship!

But I find the instant and unquestioning obedience model doesn't sit well with me.

The OP didn't use this model. She explained why the children needed to be in at that particular time. When they didn't obey, she still took them out to the cinema, gave them snacks and took them to BK. It was clearly a middle ground approach where she allowed the children to experience the natural consequences of their decision not to follow instructions.

I can't imagine a better way of teaching children to think for themselves.

OP, YANBU. You asked them to do something, you explained why and made it clear that this was non-negotiable. The children chose to ignore the instructions and their snack was postponed as a result. You probably taught them more that is useful in that one visit than their mother has taught them in years.

Yanbu. I would be enormously grateful to anyone who had not only had my children overnight but taken them out for a lovely treat. Unless they had come home completely un fed and ignored (think Harry Potter cupboard) I would have counted my blessings. And fwiw, your approach sounds as if it treats your children as mature young people who can respect boundaries. Your friend has been rude to you and done her children no favours.

" I tell them to come in at 3pm as we're going out."

But the OP did tell them they were going out, and gave them the time to be in for because of this - at 8 and 10y they should be able to follow simple instructions. Most children will do so even more when it is for someone other than their parents after all.

I must have missed the instant obedience and unquestioning model comment! I can categorically ensure you I do not (and could not) parent DS this way) he has SN (being assessed for ASD/ AS) the little blighter questions everything and wants to know why everything happens the way it does. Probably why when I said 3pm I automatically gave a reason why - I know many parents who would just say what time to be in.

Maybe I was slightly mean. As I say I know my friend very well and we are close. (Although not so much ATM!) I know she would have gone and got them 5 minutes before they had to leave it not in yet, given the snack, bought them sweets and been late etc. all the time stressing at them and shouting at them for being late. I've witnessed it. But then again she doesn't often explain why they have to be in. So negotiates without a a reason behind curfew iyswim?

My whole point was they knew 3 because we were going out and it gave them time for a drink and snack. Therefore they knew if they weren't in that time wasn't there.

OP your friend is nuts, she's so blindsided by her demanding children she's forgotten how to be rational. I fail to see what the children could possibly be 'distraught' about: they had snacks in the cinema and also went to Burger King? I'd ask your friend how she thinks the events should have played out. The children were late because they didn't not negotiate their curfew? Ridiculous. What do they do at playtime at school? They are more than capable of being in on time.

If it had just been your friend's children I would have given them the choice: snack and be too late for the cinema or have a snack at the cinema and make it on time to see the film. However, your DS needed to be considered too and it's unfair giving the others the option, if they'd have chosen to have a snack and miss the cinema then he would have to have missed the film.

I'd tell her that you won't be offering to help her out again.

If someone else looks after my child i expect my child to adhere to their rules and vice versa , unless those rules result in real harm .

There was no way I was missing the cinema - I'd paid for it already!

My DS has been late/ missed things before because of his inability to just get dressed without prompting. Even then he can't really help it. Even though his SN means he doesn't learn by natural consequences I chose to parent that way because that's how life works!

Interesting enough her DCs are angels at school. Wouldn't dare step out of line for fear of being told off.

The thing is though OP, although I do know what you mean about your friend struggling with her kids but sort of admitting that and trying hard....she didn't actually have to call you and complain did she?! She may have privately (and wrongly) thought you were unfair but the level of ingratitude and just plain rudeness here is incredible!

You were not being mean. Your DS came in at 3; they had no excuse apart from blatant disobedience for refusing to come in at the same time as him. If the DD2 was telling her older sister that she had to stay out with her or she'd tell on her, then it is clearly the DD2 who was pushing the boundaries, so it's on her that they missed out on the snack etc.

Your friend NEEDS to get a handle on this child'd behaviour before she starts to really ruin life for your friend and her DD1.

Didn't explain that well! My DS doesn't/ hasn't learnt organisation through the natural consequences way. He will be in on time because he's rigid like that about timings iyswim? But shouting or punishing him also wouldn't gain anything. So if we need to leave house at 10am he'll know we are leaving at 10am. He doesn't pocess the thought processes that mean that involves getting ready before 10am. So he has to be told what time to get dressed etc.

So I didn't expect these DCs to think about timings and time for snack and how long that would take just that they needed to be here for 3 to get ready to leave the house to go out. Maybe I should have told them want time we were going out? (My friend seems to think they wouldn't have been so late if I had?)

Those children do not sound very well behaved or very well socialised tbh. You did well. I would have been reading the riot act at 3.05pm.

Why op?

They were capable of understanding. They can't go through life thinking that they will go in on time because it benefits THEM. They were told a time. They knew they were going out. If have thought it was obvious that the two were related and even If they hadn't been, rules are rules you said to be back. Coming back because there's going to be some food or a treat in store doesn't really teach them anything.

I think you were more than fair. :)

"Maybe I was slightly mean."
No, you weren't. You really weren't.

I guess I'm trying to see where my friend is coming from. We have been friend since DCs were in nursery together.
Also because my DS requires a very specific way of parenting I'm trying to see/ gander if maybe that doesn't work or relate to NT DCs iyswim?

However I still can't get past the fact they just decided the curfew didn't really mean anything and they could please themselves.

I'll ring my friend tomorrow and see what's going on. I'll remain firm that they knew time, she heard me tell them a time and why, and that she may negotiate but she heard me telling them firm that they needed to be in at 3. I'll also say they ate at 4.15 and then again a BK at 6.30 so they weren't starved.

Part of me is wondering if they have made her feel bad about going out and she's projecting this onto it being because they had a hard time. When we've been out before they have been very anti it.

youarewinning - I can understand why you're trying to see it from your friend's POV, but frankly, the kindest thing you could do for her is to stop attempting that, because the ONLY reason she's reacted the way she has is because of the manipulations of her DD2, and she needs to STOP that.

I think your thinking too much op :)

There is NO way that a simple instruction could have been interpreted any other way. They aren't pre schoolers easily confused. They are junior school children. Capable of adapting behaviour according to setting (as you said they are angels at school) . It was them op. There was nothing you could have said or done that would have changes the defiant streak of the child.

You sound so lovely, trying to see the best in the situation. They really were just being naughty.

Unfortunately the parenting and manipulation by the kids seems to sound worse the more you're defending your friend!

OP - save your breath, honestly. You did nothing wrong - if anyone should be trying to get to the bottom of why the children behaved so appallingly it's your friend.

I had to pause the telly to read that. My verdict: YANBU

She has been trying really hard and doing really well at handling her dc2 lately though. In the past I've had her break down on me because she doesn't know how to deal with her determined child. She is mightily stressed and often gets to the point of yelling.

There must be more than to this than I'm hearing. She's an intelligent woman and knows I love her children (dc2 is actually very funny with a great sense of humour and quite ditzy in a cute way). She knows I wouldn't deny them food and knows the way I parent.

She did once say the reason her DCs were so badly behaved at mine is because I'm really strict and they find it hard going. They were about 4/5 at the time. I'm also not what I would call strict but more of the you dropped it so you pick it up camp, we don't jump on furniture here and that sort of thing. I'm not a shouter. Eg. If someone drops something I just usually laugh with a whoops and say not to worry just pick it up. Whereas she would be frustrated, use a frustrated voice to the child but tidy and Hoover it up herself.

Meant she thinks me expecting them to pick it up is strict.

Well you sound like a very nice person indeed op but I do think that your friend has overstepped the mark in a big way here. Kudos to you for being so understanding and I hope you can talk it over. However, in your place, I would be very reluctant to look after her kids again.

Again I'd say that's her problem and nothing you have done. A child picking up after themselves is normal. I think it sounds as if she has really low expectations of them. That they need all these buffer zones with regards to timings etc. She must be permanantly on edge of a simple common day to day incident of something falling off a sofa or shelf is a reason to get so strssed and yelled at. I'd say that was a huge part of the problem. That they expect to be in trouble anyway and so she might as well do what she wants. They must be picking up on the stress.

And if picking up a toy is strict I hate to say it but that's just delusional.