AIBU to think Scotland are gonna have moring after regret

[Sadoldbag]

Just heard today that Asda and morrisons will hike there prices up as the store in the uk subsidise the ones in Scotland.

Also the persident of the European union has said last week on hard talk Scotland will not be able to jump the que on the back of the uk coat tails and will have to join and fresh and wait in the back of the que

And royal mail have also said they may stop mail to the far flung parts of Scotland if they go ita lone as they loose money in the shetlands ect and they would only be required to provide mail in the uk.

And it seems to me all the bits in the white paper are all assertions and weather they keep the pound ect is not actually up to them.

I think this is gonna be like ringing your boss when drunk it sounds like a good idea at the time

But They will regert it in the morining

Babalouche - which history are we talking about that is causing some Scots to bear grudges that last into the 21st century?

Of course I understand each country has a distinct culture, Grennie.

It's difficult to boil it down to absolutes, though. Certain things are fact: Most of us speak English, but Gaelic is a native language and various minority languages are spoken
In traditional Scots, we call New Year's Eve Hogmanay
We have our own national ballet and theatre
Our writers include Robert Burns, Iain Banks, Liz Lochead
People with traditional Scottish clan names will usually find a tartan belonging to that name (though most of us aren't at all fussed)
Dishes originating in Scotland include things like cullen skink, haggis, Irn Bru bars
Mountain climbing (bagging Munros) is a common pursuit of visitors who come here
Many people choose to have ceilidhs at events such as weddings (I didn't)
The public sector is the highest source of employment
Scotland is regarded as having long-held links to France and has several alliances francaises
We have a poor standard of health in comparison to many other developed countries

These are facts. I can say I like or dislike certain things I've mentioned, but I know that they're not fully definitive of national identity.

Of course you're right about Scottish culture being developed in many ways in relation to England as the oppressor nation - no culture exists in a complete vacuum, so that's inevitable. Same goes for Ireland and the English. Catalunya with Castillian Spain. But IME, it's not something that figures in all cultural work: the films of Bill Douglas focus intently on Scottish masculinity as concept, but don't reference English 'oppression.' In the 80s, Orange Juice and Aztec Camera had many references to Glasgow in their songs, but not in relation to England. The lyrics of Ae Fond Kiss have nothing to do with England.

Of course, there's Flower of Scotland, which references sending Edward's army home. IMHO, we need a new national anthem that's more a celebration of our own country, not in relation to centuries-old warfare. And there's a lot of discourse agreeing with me on that subject. People who are anti-English and express it through cultural practice need to get a grip, I feel. But in this day and age, I don't feel that's a common thing.

Sorry, the idea of the oppressor nation

Annunziata I'm sorry you're worried about your business. I said I'm leaning towards a yes vote, not that I categorically support it. There is almost a year left in which to make up my mind.

"And if you think they will punish Scotland for staying, they are not going to be kinder to one that has left!" - and this is a good reason for staying? Fear? And the certainty of being forced to bear the brunt of a govt who knows they have absolutely nothing to lose by penalising us for dissent?

mirry2 Seriously? Aggression doesn't just affect the people who are alive at the time. It's passed on through the generations. You only have to look across the water to Ireland to see that.

Profondo great post there. Seconded.

I don't believe that most Scots feel oppressed by the English or see the English as the aggressors, what ever might have happened in the distant past.
Baba ouch -What is it that you think has passed down through the generations? I understand your comparison with 'across the water' which I assume you mean Ireland

But you said ''However, there's no getting away from the fact that if we vote No, we will be absolutely hammered by a Tory govt. It's starting to look a bit like there's no choice at all from where I'm sitting."

Is that not fear? You are afraid of a Tory government, I am afraid of independent Scotland. There'll be a general election every 4 years but independence will last forever, that's scary.

Sorry- I meant to say I don't understand your comparison

Aggression doesn't just affect the people who are alive at the time. It's passed on through the generations. You only have to look across the water to Ireland to see that

That's a very interesting point, Babanouche. And it's crucial that we don't relate to our country's experiences of the past through sustained anger and or identification as victims. We need to engage with it, question it, explore it.

If you look to France, it took a long time for French cultural figures to make work that dealt with colonialism. But these days you have films, such as the work of Claire Denis, which encourage the viewer to engage with the legacy of colonialism, to understand why it happened and why it must never happen again.

Thinking about Ireland, you have the film Hunger, about Bobby Sands, which is extremely powerful because it focuses not on issues of freedom or oppression but rather the absolute horror and sadness of a man starving himself to death, in graphic detail. We hear Thatcher's voice but this isn't an anti-English film. It looks at what happened between Thatcher and the IRA, between the IRA and the UDA/UVF.

This is why I dislike Flower of Scotland, because it highlights a reductive way of dealing with our past, when we should be proud of our past, present and future achievements, and address our past in a more meaningful way. We can't ignore it, but we should engage with it wisely.

I'm assuming Scottish people who don't live in Scotland will get a chance to vote too?

They don't, fluffytent. My brother has gone back to Italy and he can't vote.

Both England and Scotland should be proud of our pasts while also accepting of our failings - which none of us are responsible for so I for one will never beat myself up about in a mea culpa fashion. Certainly the English have no reason to be ashamed of their relationship with the Scots

Why on earth should Scottish people who live abroad and no longer vite in Scotland, be allowed to vote on independence?

The people allowed to vote in the referendum are:

British citizens resident in Scotland.
Qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland. This means Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave, and are resident in Scotland.
Citizens of the Republic of Ireland and other EU countries resident in Scotland.
Members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland.
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

I do think there's an 'oppressor culture' at play though. So, so, so much of our media is actually English-based (in fact London-based, London-slanted and London-focused, I've friends in NE England who would say the same thing). It is harder to hear Scottish voices sometimes. Recent examples from here: threads where posters have been accused of being trolls because they're posting about school issues when the English schools are on holiday; a sneery thread complaining about the 'real life' kids on CBeebies being predominately Scottish (because the BBC has moved production to Glasgow).

England/London-centrism is endemic in our culture and I have to say it does piss many Scots off. And many Welsh, Irish and NEnglish too...

I blame Mel Gibson. Fucking Braveheart.

Why on earth should Scottish people who live abroad and no longer vite in Scotland, be allowed to vote on independence?

.....welllllll ubik

All British ex pats are allowed to vote in general parliamentary elections and European parliamentary elections up to 15years after moving.

So what makes Scotland different in denying Scottish people (wherever they live a vote on THEIR country too).

Veryyyyy interesting from a legal perspective.

I"ll do some digging but I think there could be a case if someone brought this discrepancy to a court's attention.

I blame Mel Gibson. Fucking Braveheart.

Too fucking right, usuallyright. I don't know one Scottish person who doesn't think that film is a laughable pile of shite. They showed us some of it in Higher History to highlight its discrepancies and bullshitting.

Annunziata "You are afraid of a Tory government, I am afraid of independent Scotland. There'll be a general election every 4 years but independence will last forever, that's scary."

The difference is there is absolute proof that we get shafted by Tories govts. It will never change. If we resisted change through fear of what might be, nothing would EVER change.

Profondo "That's a very interesting point, Babanouche. And it's crucial that we don't relate to our country's experiences of the past through sustained anger and or identification as victims. We need to engage with it, question it, explore it."

Absolutely, and I think that's the approach of most Scots tbh. Certainly the Scots I know anyway. There's undoubtedly a minority who harbour anti-English views but often that's more to do with poverty and lack of education - which one might say is another reason to consider a Yes vote.

Mirry I used the Irish example because England invaded Ireland hundreds of years ago and we're still seeing the consequences of that today. Incidentally, that strife spread to Scotland and we still see it in sectarianism today.

So no, I don't think it's reasonable to say ( a minority of) Scottish people are justified in resenting the English, but it does make it easier to understand and move on from there if it's acknowledged.

But as I said earlier, this is not a factor in anyone I know's decision to vote yes.

It is true UK media is London centric. But that affects the whole of the UK, which is a pretty big place, not just Scotland.

And scottish accents are common in the media. Some other types of UK accents are very very uncommon.

WilsonFrickett Yup. I lived in London for twenty years and then moved back. The view's very different from here.

Grennie that's true. The difference is Scotland has a chance to do something about it. I know some northern Englanders who talk about breaking off as well actually...

It is the same for the Welsh, the Irish, and people in England in the North and the Midlands. I am happy for challenges to be made to the media's London centrism. I just want people to recognise that it is not something that only affects Scotland.

But the ex-pats have a postal vote, don't they? So they are registered to vote in the UK...so if they are registered for a postal vote in Scotland then they will be allowed to vote in the referendum.

But if you have moved from Glasgow and are now regustered to vote in London and not Glasgow, then it would seem odd to be suddenly allowed two votes!

Grennie Yes, but we're talking in the context of Scotland here because this is the thread we're in. Maybe there should be a referendum on the national dislike of London-centric media...

But looking online it seems that ex-pats will not vote in the referendum - which I suppose makes sense because if you don't live there, pay tax educate your children or use any services then why should you vote?