AIBU to think Scotland are gonna have moring after regret

[Sadoldbag]

Just heard today that Asda and morrisons will hike there prices up as the store in the uk subsidise the ones in Scotland.

Also the persident of the European union has said last week on hard talk Scotland will not be able to jump the que on the back of the uk coat tails and will have to join and fresh and wait in the back of the que

And royal mail have also said they may stop mail to the far flung parts of Scotland if they go ita lone as they loose money in the shetlands ect and they would only be required to provide mail in the uk.

And it seems to me all the bits in the white paper are all assertions and weather they keep the pound ect is not actually up to them.

I think this is gonna be like ringing your boss when drunk it sounds like a good idea at the time

But They will regert it in the morining

Cyprus and Greece are likely to object also for similar reasons.

LessMissAbs, do you have any thoughts on the questions I asked you on the previous page?

Not sure how keen Spain would be to lose their fishing rights....

Profondo what I will say in response to your aggressive and accusatory questions is that i do not agree with the notion that Scotland cannot never be criticised. In fact I think a bit of self reflection of the national character is a good thing.

Furthermore, you should not assume that everyone in Scotland or who has lived there is Scottish, and that they are going to tow the 'Scotland is wonderful' line all the time. In actual fact, Scotland doesn't compare that well in many respects to some other countries. However, since there is only 5 million of you and I no longer live there, what you talk about infers more interest that I actually have.

I'm sorry if you found my questions aggressive and accusatory, LessMissAbs. I asked them in response to a post I felt was bigoted and full of language redolent of an imperialist ethnographic study from the 19th century.

I never said I thought we shouldn't question nationalist rhetoric, or indeed reflect on our nation-image. I haven't expressed my feelings about independence either way. I asked why you feel the need to knock Scotland so much. What did it do to make you feel that way?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
Not sure how keen Spain would be to lose their fishing rights....

It's a question, then, of which they're keener to hang on to - fishing rights or 3/4 of their industrial base and a third of their country.

Still hoping for a reply on the fiscal and economic elements of secession.

Profondo reading through this thread, and others recently discussing indepndance, i've also wondered about this.lessMissAbs. You seem to have an almost vitriolic hatred of Scotland.
I'm also wondering why..

I no longer respond to her posts, rude and offensive & attempts to derail every thread with her derogatory comments.

Well, I've lived in Holland, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Scotland, and currently Belgium. And I just dont like some adpects of the the Scottish 'culture' that much.

But it puzzles me that anything approaching criticism if the Scots should be equated to hatred.

Fervent nationalism, to the point of self obsession with being Scottish, is somewhat off putting.

I dont see how an independent Scotland is going to be a successful country if valid and meaningful criticism is ignored, and people who do ut labelled, somewhat childishly, as haters.

Remember the woman who fell down a mi e shaft, who died because she was left there for so long by the Fire Service because they refused to use their specialist equipment on a member of the public? And yet the Fire Service labelled the operation as a 'successful outcome?' For me, that sort of attitude is just too prevalent.

I know quite a few non Scores working in Scotland who are making plans to leave be side they are so uncomfortable with what's going on there.

But of course, no one must ever say such things, because if you criticise Scotland or the Scots, you must be mad, bad or deluded!

FannyFifer since your contributions mainly consist of sniping, but you seem rather reluctant to nail your colours to the mast on any issue where you risk being challenged, that's a great relief to me.

I'm not calling you a hater, LessMissAbs. I'm saying it's bad form, sailing dangerously close to racism, definitely in the range of bigotry to say things like "I find the people to be excitable, not calm." And to suggest that we can't critically engage with debate around independence, as a nation, because we're blinkered by some kind of neanderthal uber-nationalist pride. You just keep generalising.

Ah the racist line. Except I am technically Scottish, albeit not of Scottish extraction, and I dont really think its possible to be racist against your own race.

However, if I were to say that, due to my racial heritage, I was brought up to speak my mind it may well be racist to criticise me for doing so. Furthermore, I find boasting about nationality and lack of modesty about achievements really quite offensive, so you seem to be implicitly suggesting that people who do not conform to the accepted ideal of 'Scottishness' will not be tolerated.

I find the nationalism in Scotland very off putting as well.

Um, I think you'll find it's entirely plausible that an individual, through making reductive, generalising remarks about their own country, may be identified by others as racist, or at the very least a bigot.

Furthermore, I find boasting about nationality and lack of modesty about achievements really quite offensive, so you seem to be implicitly suggesting that people who do not conform to the accepted ideal of 'Scottishness' will not be tolerated

Please go back and show me where I've done this. Because I'm keen to avoid such behaviour. I am not a nationalist and never have been. I find nationalism in any country suspicious. I don't have an 'ideal' of Scottishness and would not want to know anyone who did.

You, on the other hand, seem unable to see Scotland as anything other than a hellhole. And you seem so drawn to the issue. On a recent thread where posters came together in a spirit of warmth and generosity to express their love for Glasgow after the Clutha crash, you appeared with the sole purpose of saying Aberdeen was a dump!

Seriously, what's going on?

Profondo. I'm half Dutch, living in Belgium. Until recently I lived in Scotland, and also have Scottish heritage. However, I fail to see what possible input I could sincerely make regarding a tragic incident that took place many miles away from me. It is in my character to be quite introvert, and I do not feel that I should be criticised for not choosing to comment in a way which personally I would find fake.

I have lost count of the number of times on this very thread that it has been said a good thing that Scotland become more like Scandinavia. Never Estonia. Or Nigeria. Or wherever. However, because its considered at the moment desirable in Scotland to be like Scandinavians, that is being pushed.

Likewise, I've also lost count of the number of times on here that I've read about Dutch coming across as rude because they speak their minds. I simply laugh it off, as it is a recognised Dutch trait.

Then again, in Holland, and a lot of Northern European countries, its considered the height of rudeness to boast about things, to self congratulate too much. Its just about the most cringeworthy, crassest way to behave.

But make a similar remark about a Scot, even though you're a Scot yourself, and its racism? Seriously?
There are no traits common to most Scots, and they have no national chats yet that defines them?

All that will happen is that you will breed a nation of people who are afraid to speak out, or to be individuals. Because the ones that seek to suppress are the ones who are most vocal.

Don't think this can't happen to a country. Look at the former USSR. Or East Germany. Or Germany under Hitler.

Don't think this can't happen to a country. Look at the former USSR. Or East Germany. Or Germany under Hitler

Yay. Godwin's Law...

I call Full House on LessMissAbs

I do not feel that I should be criticised for not choosing to comment in a way which personally I would find fake Absolutely agree with you. But why comment at all, then? If it's of no concern to you?

Then again, in Holland, and a lot of Northern European countries, its considered the height of rudeness to boast about things, to self congratulate too much. Its just about the most cringeworthy, crassest way to behave

And I would wholeheartedly agree with anyone who holds that view. But it's not my experience of Scottish people in general. If we're going to continue using broad stereotypes, how does your image of Scotland as boastful and excitable fit with the more internationally held image (which I also hate) of Scotland as dour and reticent? Which was plain to see throughout the coverage of Andy Murray's road to Wimbledon.

But make a similar remark about a Scot, even though you're a Scot yourself, and its racism? Seriously?

No, to make such a comment about 'a Scot' is not racism. but to repeatedly, vehemently make such comments about Scots as a race is racism, in my opinion.

Likewise, I've also lost count of the number of times on here that I've read about Dutch coming across as rude because they speak their minds. I simply laugh it off, as it is a recognised Dutch trait

I feel sorry for people who generalise in such a way. I would balk at hearing anyone describe the Dutch, as a nation, as 'rude.' It suggests that the speaker has nothing more than the most shallow knowledge of a place and is not interested in expanding their knowledge.

Your opinion is as valid as mine, or indeed any of ours. But I wish to God you would stop bashing the country where I was born and where I choose to live, and deciding that your own subjective experience is representative of Scotland as a whole.

ProfondoRosso

Um, I think you'll find it's entirely plausible that an individual, through making reductive, generalising remarks about their own country, may be identified by others as racist, or at the very least a bigot.

I find it interesting how keen you are to attack this poster for making negative remarks about Scotland and your lively attempts to classify her as a 'bigot' (and I don't think you know what that word means or you wouldn't keep using it in this way), and yet you aren't holding people praising the superior socialist attitude of the Scots to account.

Is racism solely making negative remarks, or are those energetically stereotyping their own countrymen as superior also racist?

ISTM that what you're interested in doing is stifling any views that don't gel with your own preconceived notions of the superiority of the Scots.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Yay. Godwin's Law...

I call Full House on LessMissAbs

Free to do that, far too busy to talk about the economics of Scottish independence. I will have to assume that you are well aware that the numbers don't add up and are hoping nobody will notice. Still, socialists and bankruptcy, it's like stilton and port.

Is racism solely making negative remarks, or are those energetically stereotyping their own countrymen as superior also racist?

I think we both know the answer to that, flatpack. But here's what the OED has to say:

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, esp. those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occas. in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities.

ISTM that what you're interested in doing is stifling any views that don't gel with your own preconceived notions of the superiority of the Scots.

Please, please tell me where I've expressed a view that Scots are superior. Please. Because, seeing as I don't believe that and am not even a nationalist, I want to be sure I don't come across like that.

I'm not questioning LessMissAbs because I'd rather she kept quiet about negative experiences she may have had in Scotland or with Scottish people. Or because she doesn't support fervent Scottish nationalism or blindness to any constructive criticism of our national affairs. Neither do I. I am asking her, after reading countless threads where she has used her own negative experiences to tar Scottish people with the same brush to stop doing so. Because it's an insidious and prejudiced way of communicating.

And I use 'bigot' in this context: a person characterized by obstinate, intolerant, or strongly partisan beliefs.

Profundo I would far rather mix with dour and reticent people than boastful intolerant people. But that former Scotland now seems to be morphing into an urban centric culture where everyone is expected to vote the same. I can hardly believe the remarks made on here about the concept of voting for the current UK government main party. So intolerant!

There's loads of stuff about Scotland thats wrong. The much vaunted education system recently came near the bottom of the international league table. The Scottish minister responsible simply said that they didnt value such comparisons. Astonishing!

But if you dare to mention things, you are racist, hate Scotland, etc? How will things ever improve then?

Does 'Scotland: the country that must never be criticised' really have that much of a ring to it?

Scotland is a pretty nationalistic country. And many scots seem to think Scotland is hard done by. And yet they know little about the realities such as the Barnett formula.

So many Scots also seem convinced about the superiority of so many scottish institutions such as the education system which seems to stem from nationalism and parochialism.

I honestly can't be bothered looking through your posts Profundo. Lifes too short. But I have certainly read on this and related threads numerous comments that the Scots are more socialist and caring than other nationalities. Usually the English, who are then dismissed all sorts of tripe for not having the same voting patterns.

So what's the point in seeking to govern yourselves, if you are completely indistinguishable from the rest of the UK?

And if course, nothing racist about charging English students higher university fees...

In fact, put it in the White Paper and lie about the European Court of Justice 'supporting' it.

We. Are. Not. All. The. Same.

OK?

You get parochialism, intolerance, socialism, conservatism, nationalism in spades south of the border. And in pretty much ANY other country you would care to name.

I am sad that some MNers view these as typically Scottish traits, as being definitive markers of national character.