To not take my daughter to see her biological father?

[violet1982]

Sorry, this may be a bit long!

I met my ex partner whilst on holiday abroad. We started a holiday romance and eventually I moved over to his country to be with him, I really did love him as I didn't know what he is really like. When I used to visit him for a holiday he was wonderful, really kind and considerate and acted as though he was a lovely guy. After moving over there to be with him, when he realised I had no money he turned into a complete monster. I found out that he is actually a compulsive liar, he cheated on me, plus he took steroids and smoked cannabis permanently - I only found all of this out when I was pregnant. When I was pregnant the abuse got worse, mind games, physical abuse .... at one point he tried to strangle me, my life was a living nightmare. It was only when our baby was born that I realised that I had to move back to the UK as I didn't want our child living in those conditions. When I moved back to the UK I still used to take our baby over to see him on a regular basis. After a few years I met another man, we are now married and I am pregnant again and my first child is now 6 and calls my husband 'Dad' ... she knows he is not her real father and made her own choice to call him Dad but they really do both worship each other, my husband is the perfect father. Her real Dad is a lousy father, he has never paid a penny towards her upbringing and he has no parenting skills at all ... I will always remember when she first learnt to count, she was showing off to him and he said well I can count ... he started to show off and counted to 10 in his own language - he is a prat!
Now I am married and have another baby on the way I do not have the time to take my eldest to see her biological father, I work full time and my husband and I want to take her on family holidays, not to see her biological father every single year. Is this unreasonable? It's not cheap to go over there but the biological father is constantly pestering me to go over there, he turns abusive when I say I can't get time off work ( which is true) . When we go and see him he uses our daughter as a trophy, he shows her off but he always has a hidden agenda for asking us to go there - it's usually to try and get money off me. He is constantly asking me for money all of the time, sometimes I do send him some as I feel sorry as he lives in a poor country, but the more I send him the more he wants, he will say things like he 'only' needs £5K!!. He never phones, just texts and never asks to see a photo of his daughter. At the moment we go over there once a year but I would love just to change my number and email address and never speak to him again. All he ever wants is money, I feel as though I have a black cloud over my marriage as I get constant abuse via text from this man. My daughter hates it when she goes to visit her biological father, she hates the country and doesn't even like to speak to her biological father or his family when we are there, they are all very childish around her and find it funny to say things like she is ugly.... we had one family adult member bite her face because they were jealous. The biological father constantly does things to annoy her thinking he is being funny and joking. I have never bad mouthed him to our daughter but I am at my wits end now. What would you do?

I think you should stop beating yourself up over this. You have gone above and beyond to facilitate a relationship but time and time again he/they have proven themselves unworthy of your efforts. Time to stop. You will never be the 'wrong' one for doing this. You must know in your heart of hearts it is over. No money no contact. You must follow your gut and protect your daughter and do what's best for your whole family.
Your daughter will only ever thank you once she is old enough to comprehend. The political situation etc will get worse before it gets better.
You have tried. Time to take back power and decide what's best for all of you. Please give yourself credit for your effort but look to the future, not trying to fight and change circumstances beyond your control in the past. It's an old one but you really cannot change people only how you react to them.

Contact is for the benefit of the child and clearly there is no benefit to her but there is a lot of risk to her with keeping contact.

Skype is risky as when she is older he would be able to get your address or other contact details from her, I doubt you would want that to happen.

If there is no "evidence" that this excuse for a man is her biological father then maybe your husband can adopt her

If you were in Egypt and if your ex partner were to persuade authorities that he is the father then that would be sufficient for him to take your dd and walk away ....

You are behaving decently and wanting to believe the best in the dad and his family yet their behaviour and actions are shocking. Cut contact now.

• sorry, really tired tonight hence grammar failure there!

violet, I don't have much to add in terms of contact and visiting to the good advice you have already been given.

But I wanted to stress that the Egyptian side of your daughter's heritage is very much part of who she is, and suggest that you make notes / keep a diary yourself about the situation just now (in terms of Egypt in general, rather than your DH) to give some context to any discussion which you have in future with your daughter. I live in another North African Muslim country (although we are an English family). Life here is so very, very different for the local population, as you know. It sounds like your ExP has behaved badly but perhaps not completely surprisingly. Attitudes to women, family values, perception of westerners etc are deeply ingrained. Your ExP is not necessarily a bad person; I imagine that a significant proportion of Egyptian men would behave as he has done, because these are the values they know and (with regards to requests for money) the sad situation in which where countries now find themselves. People's priorities are so different here, and change cannot happen overnight. Unfortunately, at the moment, the general shift in these countries is away from tolerance and equality. I'm generalising - many of the locals I know are lovely people who do not fit this mould, but a lot comes down to their place in society in turn, and to put it crudely, how wealthy and educated their family is. It is hard to put into words, and I have no wish to offend anyone. I love the country I live in very much, including its people and culture and traditional way of life, but the political forces (and they are political, whatever anyone may claim) at play and the level of poverty and sometimes fear in which people are forced to play out their lives can undermine the intrinsic goodness of the society and lead to some really nasty interactions, particularly with westerners.

I hope this makes some sense. It does sadden me a little to read all of the "what a shit" responses - yes, he has been an absolute idiot and I feel very sorry for you and wouldn't seek to defend his behaviour, but at she same time, when you are explaining this to your daughter I do feel that it needs to be in the context of the society which he was born into and brought up in, so that she doesn't feel personally rejected. It is a million miles away from a British dad behaving like this.

I hope this makes some sense. It sounds like you've done as much as you can to keep the relationship going, and now you need to prioritise your daughter's, and your own, happiness and safety.

EstellaAgain - It makes so much sense!! This is party why I have felt guilt ... a lot of Egyptians are exactly the same as he is and he has been brought up to be like this. This is why I feel sorry for him a lot of the time. I need to stop this cycle now though as he will never change. I realise that he has no respect for English people and they see my daughter as English so we need to break away.

Oh good, I thought it sounded long winded and preachy! But yes, likely he does and never will have any respect for you as a western woman, and this will not change. But at the same time, if your daughter understands that then at least it will help her to understand your choice, and why her father is like this. Good luck!

Sounds like you have come to some ensible descions..I would worry about Skype though esp if you are stopping money... I would offer email..that way you can read what is been said..

I assume he will get nastier and more manipulative...

I would simply tell him if he wants to pass messages on or want info about his daughter use this email....Any other conversations are now closed...If he asks for money , gets abusive simply don't reply..He does it because it gets him what he wants money...

I don't think, though Violet that all Egyptian men try to strangle their wives. This is extremely abusive behaviour and I think you need to stop feeling sorry for him because he is poor and because he comes from this culture- my husband is from a very poor culture but I haven't had these experiences.

However, this is a culture in which FGM is extremely common, wiki gives the rate as 97% of adult women, in which case your dd remaining uncut will become ever more problematic and my very real fear is that they will simply stage an intervention as the social shame of her being uncut will increase as she gets older.

I think your mind is made up, but I want you to lose the guilt as well, if it is not that the culture is rotten to the core, then your ex partner certainly was, and it is this delicate issue which is going to be harder to explain to your dd, as it is very sad, in comparison to why you stopped taking her there.

Have you seen pictures of FGM, they are enough to make you never step foot in egypt ever again or any other country that practices it.

Haven't read the whole thread but:

Protect your daughter - esp from being cut

Stop sending money

Stop feeling guilty - your daughter comes first. If you don't protect her by stopping contact how will you feel if they cut her? Marry her off? How will you stop it if you're there? You can't phyically protect her against a group of deteremined men/women on your own. These things do happen.

Don't do skype. Do email so you can check everything. Supervise any contact very closely. When she's older, if he has contact, he might try to manipulate her so you need to be careful.

If he wants to see her, he comes to uk and sees her near you. He isn't paying for upkeep why should you pay for visit to see him.

OP
I am 48
my parents divorced when I was 2
for long term reasons I saw my dad for a few days every summer
as an adult the lack of effort from him became clear
BUT
once I had kids things changed
I still only see him for a few days every few years
BUT
he's a bloody good laugh on the phone
that will do

DO NOT force your child to go if they do not want to
if he wants to see her, he pays the flights up front etc

they will sort it out long term
use your energy to make her a good, happy, stable person
and she may choose to have multiple parents (I had 5) if it suits

look after yourselves FIRST

Don't give a second thought to this, stop the money and do not take her again. Leave the lines of communication open and answer any questions she might have in an age appropriate way. It sounds like you've done a brilliant job of raising a wonderful daughter in tough circumstances and tried to forge a relationship between her and her father because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time, so don't beat yourself up.

As I say, do not give a second thought to this, you are absolutely making the right decision. Best of luck for the future and congratulations to you and your family on your pregnancy xx.

Actually having now read whole thread, I think that your DH has a Dad - its your DH. Forgot biology. Have your DH adopt your DD. Tell your DD that she is always welcome to contact her biological Dad in the future if she wants to but its up to her. (And teach her about Egyptian culture / food whatever if you want). And change mobile number and email address. Possibly also tell the police to make sure he isn't allowed into the UK, although you think this is unlikely as even if he does come he won't be able to find you. I wouldn't even warn him that you are cutting contact, just cancel the money, change phone number, change email address. Anyway you can always keep the email address (as an occasional use one) in case your DD does want to contact him at a later date.

He doesn't seem to care about her - more about the money you give him (which you must stop), its DANGEROUS to take her to Egypt, as others have said he could abduct her, have a DNA test, and you would never see her again.

Why do you want this abusive man in your life at all? I usually would think it wrong to cut off a biological parent, but in this case, best to rewrite history and give your DH parental responsibility.

OP - you were with this man for 7 years and living with him for 3. In that time look how unpleasant and abusive he was to you, including hiding his drug taking from you, even in the three years you were living together. I get the feeling maybe this is why you have all this guilt surrounding him and why for so long you have kept sending him money and visiting him for extended periods, with no thanks or appreciation, just more abuse and tantrums. To spend so much time with someone and put so much into trying to develop a relationship and then finding out it was all false and a farce (to him) must have been heartbreaking and really hit hard at your self esteem. I sort of get the feeling you are in a way punishing yourself for falling in love with such a man and somehow feel guilty at being taken in by him and taken for a ride. Don't. There are many really bright, intelligent women that fall for the wrong man and are abused by them. The important thing is you have moved on. Your daughter has a wonderful mum and dad (your DH) and a fantastic future ahead of her. IMHO its time to lose the guilt and cut the ties to this man.

What Poppy and some of the others have said is very wise, but I don't think you are listening. It really doesn't matter what your lawyers have told you. The theory and practice of law can be very different. Unreasonable people don't give a flying fuck about the law. Did this man obey the law when he had his hands round your neck strangling you? No. Did he care about the law when he abused you? No. Did he obey the law when he was taking drugs? No. Will he care about the law when his mother, family, friends and probably imam take him to task about leaving his daughter uncut? No - he won't, particularly since in his view as he is her father, she is his property and he is doing the right thing under the law as he understands it. If you keep visiting one day he will simply take his daughter. He will probably give you a good beating in front of her and simply take her and walk out with her screaming. And the screaming won't stop for her - I don't suppose they would plan to use anesthetic when they cut her. It won't stop in the years ahead of her either. If you think he will go to the police and nicely ask permission to take her I think you are being very naive. Probably because you are a good, law abiding person. Its not worth the risk. He can take her and disappear and you would never find her until it was too late.

Keep in touch via skype if you feel you really must, but I'm betting contact will dwindle away. Try to lose the guilt and anguish this man brings and go out and have a wonderful life with your gorgeous daughter and DH. You have been through a lot and deserve to be happy :)

Estella re your points about the need to be aware of cultural differences, all well and good but for the present situation, sorry, living in a country where girls are not cut and FGM is illegal trumps living in one where it is legal and girls are cut every time. I don't care if saying that is cultural imperialism.

OP you have been unreasonable. You mentioned the grandmother constantly nagging at you to her circumcised. Hearing it once would have been enough for me to get the next plane home and never go back.

Why does this have to so either/or. Stop sending money, stop going to his country for six weeks. See if that changes things. Keep it to a minimum rather than close the door entirely. You could end up just going for a week or two every few years, for example. Also - Nobody has talked about your daughters ethnicity and her need to maintain a sense of that..

Caitlin I think you may have missed my point. I absolutely agree with you, the OP should not take her daughter to Egypt or have any further involvement with this man on any sort of emotional level (i.e. maybe continue some email contact only).

My point about cultural differences is in relation to explaining the situation to her daughter down the line. If her daughter has no Egyptian frame of reference (which she won't - and wouldn't really even if the holidays had continued, it wouldn't be enough to scratch the surface of that culture for a child who is being raise in Britain by British parents) then when the time comes for her mum to explain what her dad did and why they lost contact (if that happens) then surely there is a risk, when this child has only known British family relationships, that she feels really personally rejected? If it is explained in the context if the society which her dad has grown up in, it becomes less to do with the daughter personally and more to do with his values and priorities; surely this will be an easier position for an older British child / young woman to feel comfortable with?

Estella I agree with you. Mabey when dd is older, op can explain these things about her biological fathers culture, mabey once she I a lot older mabey adult sh might want to visit Egypt (not necessarily her father) to find out fr Hersey about the culture. At the moment op main concern is keeping her dd safe, and cutting this noose from around her neck so that they are both free to get on with their lives, without this blight.

Have come back to the thread after posting early. Op it sounds like you are driven by doing the right thing for your child. You can, hand on heart, tell your dd that you went beyond what was needed to allow you her to know her father and culture. Now you need to make the decision that the best thing is to drop contact and just plain get on and enjoy your life. Tell those he has contact details for what you are doing and why.

Violet

Being someone that was denied contact with her father for 27 years for completely different reasons I would never have thought that I would be advocating cutting all ties but in this case I think it is imperative that you do.

I applaud you for trying to keep the lines of communication open IMHO for the right reasons, I wish my Mother had. As an adult I made the decision to trace my Dad and enjoyed the 11 years I had with him before he passed away. But I was lucky to have lovely memories of my childhood with him before the split which happened when I was 5, so these memories were from preschool age. The reason I have brought this up is that your daughter will carry memories of the horrendous visits she has had with her biological father that will sway her decision as an adult whether she wants to reinstate contact.

Please do not ever let her return to Egypt, I agree with the other posters FGM is barbaric and I would fear for her safety. Cut the money out as well, neither he or his family deserve it.

I wish you and your lovely family all the best xx

Thank you everyone for your comments. I have just read through them again and they really do make so much sense. I will now lose the guilt, I have nothing to be guilty about anyway as I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I tried to make their relationship work whereas my ex has done nothing. I know that I can't go on like this, I can't do it to my daughter, it's not fair on her, it's not fair on my husband or on our new baby. You all have put everything into perspective for me.
Warmest wishes to everyone.

good luck violet. Th first thing is to stop money and change your number.

I bet he would start Skyping if the money dried up and you refused to be abused over the phone anymore.

If I were you I would cut him off altogether. You know that he doesn't bring anything positive to his daughter's life. He would abuse her just like he does you. Get a new simcard and move on. You'll be doing your daughter an enormous favour.