to think that appearance shouldn't matter?

[JollyStoutGiant]

If you're looking to have a business relationship with someone surely you should simply require them to be good at their job. They don't need to have dry hair, make up on, a nice bag. Presumably the more time they spend on their appearance the less they spend on doing the job you require them to do.

Similarly if you're looking for someone to have an emotional relationship with. You need to get on with them. Surely whether or not they've ironed their t-shirt shouldn't be a consideration?

Why is it the case that humans, often, try to find someone who spends time on their appearance? Even on MN where there are so many feminist viewpoints the majority of posters still expect professional colleagues to look like they've made an effort.

I don't understand why these things are important.

"if you have shown you can bring in the clients and the revenue you are much more likely to make partner"

That's simply not what you said earlier in the thread. Earlier you indicated that the only real differential between those levels of management was good grooming.

Anyway, I'd still maintain that if the only real difference between directors and partners is a nice coat and some people skills then the skill ceiling really isn't that high. But, as you said, it isn't exactly rocket science they're doing.

Personally I'm not a slob-it-into-work type. I feel that since I have to get dressed every day, I may as well make it pleasant and interesting. But I don't presume that people who aren't as well turned out as I am aren't as competent.

Granted, there are many sectors where image is next to everything. But most jobs aren't like that.

It's also worth bearing in mind that some body shapes are just far easier to dress than others. If you are a bit of an odd shape then it will be much harder to find clothes that fit well and make you look instantly pulled together. Two people could spend equal time, effort and funds on work clothes and one would look much smarter than the other. I don't think it's fair to discriminate on that basis.

What prejudice limited ?

I don't have any issue with people who dress well for work. Or "underestimate" them. I just wouldn't automatically presume that they are more competent or highly skilled than people who look less polished. Based on experience.

OK, so you walk into Primark and you walk towards the cheap t-shirt section. Whether you pick the pink glittery t-shirt, the plain blue t-shirt or the spotty t-shirt is completely down to what you the way you want to appear. The t-shirts are the same price, but you care about the way you look, so you choose the t-shirt that you like best. You make a decision based on the appearance of the t-shirt. NOT just the cheapest one... because they are all cheap... NOT the comfort... because you dismissed the itchy fabric straight away. You make your selection based on appearance.

Trish Sorry! I was going to reply to say I totally agree and I think you hit the nail on the head as to why looking decent does matter.

head Im not going any further with this. I don't appreciate the comment about my profession not being rocket science. I am lucky that I get to work with some of the most hardworking and intellegent people this planet has to offer.

Diseases That might be the case which is why I used correlated. I think causation has a lot to do with it. I know if I lived in the UK I couldn't afford to work. Childcare would be too expensive. I would be in decent clothes thanks to DH but without him I wouldn't even afford Primark. This is why the current tax system in the UK needs a complete overhaul. Childcare should be fully deductible so families who need help are more easily identified.

Sorry head, but I think you do.

Supermum, I'm on your side of the argument, but this is a bit of a daft comment to make and undermines your general point:

*I live in the US and in the NYM area women are a whole lot smarter on average compared to the UK. I also come accross many more women in senior positions in the workplace. Are the two correlated? IMO Yes.

You cannot compare New York women with all women in the UK. Or if you can, then try comparing London women with all women in America, the mid-West and deep South included. I think you'll see the same thing in reverse.

Women in big cities; hell, people in big cities tend to, um, 'present' in a noticeably different way from those in towns in rural areas. You're totally comparing apples and oranges and it does your argument no good. And I say this as someone who cares about my appearance.

And of course you're going to find more women/people in big (financial) cities in senior positions, than you would find represented across the entire country...?

You're drawing conclusions from utterly unrelated facts.

Based on what, limited?

I've had nothing to say against people who take enjoyment in their dress. Just that I think it's foolish to assume that less polished people are less competent.

Want2be, it's not rocket science though, is it? Most jobs don't demand a comparabke level of skill, education or specialisation. I don't see what there is to get upset about that for.

Oh, and OP - YANBU not to care about appearance and put no priority on it. YANBU to be annoyed if/when people make assumptions about a person based on their appearance. It shouldn't matter.

YABU - or at least disingenuous - to live in the real world and not understand why appearance is, to a greater or lesser degreee, important. :)

But OP you do still care about appearance and make as many judgements about appearance as the people you are questioning. That's apparent in your first post:

"Presumably the more time they spend on their appearance the less they spend on doing the job you require them to do."

So while you may not care about your own appearance beyond how practical or comfortable you feel, you care about others appearances because, like the rest of us, you make assumptions from it.

Whether you pick the pink glittery t-shirt, the plain blue t-shirt or the spotty t-shirt is completely down to what you the way you want to appear.

Or you just want a t-shirt, couldn't care less what they look like, and pick the nearest one.

But you would choose the colour at least? You would base at least some of your decision on the way it looks.

Surely you have t-shirts in more than one colour? Why? Because of how they look? Because of how they will affect your appearance?

JollyStoutGiant

like they've made an effort.

The answer's in your first post. Do you want to employ someone who makes an effort, or someone who doesn't make an effort?

People who don't make an effort are colloquially known as "lazy, skiving slackers".

heads

I think we agree with each other that the world isn't how we want it.

Though it dismays me, there is a lot more discrimination in the world that than that surrounding the ironing of clothes and drying of hair, which was was OP was on about.

TBH my initial impression of someone who failed to do that would be poor, but she might impress me by being a whizz at her job.

But she would disappoint me if she later trashed someone who blow-dried her hair and wore heels and assumed that by doing that, she wasn't up to her job. That was the OP's opinion, think.

Do you feel the same?

I just want people to be able to do their jobs no matter what they look like.

There are some jobs were people need to look very groomed but happily, most jobs aren't like that.

So that's great, isn't it?

Because it means that most jobs are being done excellently, regardless of looks, and we all know that's true, don't we?

Just as we all know that most people look great, don't we?

Alternatively, performance and appearance don't really matter either way, do they?

Do you want to employ someone who makes an effort, or someone who doesn't make an effort?

If they put suitable effort into their work, their appearance is irrelevant. Human beings look perfectly good enough as long as they are clean. There should be no requirement for unnecessary "effort" on top of that.

Surely you have t-shirts in more than one colour? Why? Because of how they look? Because of how they will affect your appearance?

Sadly, yes I am influenced by peer pressure. I could quite easily pick clothes at random as long as they were comfortable. But I've learned the hard way that to avoid being bullied by idiots who can't live and let live, I have to choose clothes where I don't stand out for being too unfashionable. I have no other interest in what I, or anyone else, looks like or wears. It's purely for a quiet life.

So presumably they can forget about clothes completely then as long as they are clean? NOT irrelevant.

No way would I trash someone for looking well presented, or assume they're incompetent!

I agree that many people are less than exacting in their work. But I don't think it's got much to do with standards if dress.

There is a middle ground between full make up and immaculate at one end and wet hair and crumpled looking at the other.
The latter look is definitely unprofessional and just looks as though the person is lazy and sloppy. I would worry that the sloppiness extended to other areas if I employed them. I get dressed appropriately on a morning but only wash (and dry) my hair every 3 days and wear minimal if any makeup. I still look smart. My getting ready time doesn't eat into the time spent doing my job as my job doesn't start until I arrive so it's my personal time I'm using up. if someone can't be bothered spending a few minutes of their personal time on getting themselves looking smart for their job (or appropriately attired if they work on a building site) then I'd think they weren't that bothered about the job. Why would anyone go to work with wet hair? With modern hairdriers it only takes a couple of minutes.

Agreed, rebecca re the middle ground. Most people seem to find it without a whole load of angst.

Someone literally going out of their way to pick up the very first t-shirt they see and paying absolutely no regard to it beyond comfort, just seems to me to be so deliberately obtuse and pointless point-making, as to be beyond bizarre.

2rebecca I would love a modern hair dryer that took a few minutes to do my hair! It takes me at least 30 minutes to get my hair dry!!!

Not sure how many people would actually pick up the very first t-shirt they see. If that t-shirt happened to be plain, then they may get lucky, but if the first t-shirt in a shop was embellished or otherwise decorated in a way that didn't match their taste, then I doubt those who think that "appearance shouldn't matter" would select the very first item without ANY regard for what they would look like in it.

I resent the fact that, according to many on this thread, women are expected to spend large amounts of time, money and effort on their appearance to look acceptable. Yes, there can be a middle ground, but at the very least women need to think about and spend time and money on: hair styling, clothes, make-up.

Men, on the other hand, to achieve the same degree of acceptance/ respectable appearance, only need to buy a couple of suits (without any angst over whether it suits their figure, or worrying about putting outfits together), a standard pair of shoes, get a bog-standard hair-cut every couple of months (if they're not bald) and shave or trim for a few minutes every morning.

Nonsense, I spend no more time on my appearance than my husband and still manage to look smart. I have easier clothes to iron as he wears shirts and I don't usually, and I don't have to shave every morning. If it takes 30 minutes to get hair dry then dry it on an evening. High power hair driers are fairly cheap these days.
You don't have to spend "excessive" amounts of time on your appearance, however to look smart both men and women have to spend "some" time on their appearance, not just pull on the first thing they see and rush out of the door with wet hair. if your hair is that much of a faff get it cut.