to think that appearance shouldn't matter?

[JollyStoutGiant]

If you're looking to have a business relationship with someone surely you should simply require them to be good at their job. They don't need to have dry hair, make up on, a nice bag. Presumably the more time they spend on their appearance the less they spend on doing the job you require them to do.

Similarly if you're looking for someone to have an emotional relationship with. You need to get on with them. Surely whether or not they've ironed their t-shirt shouldn't be a consideration?

Why is it the case that humans, often, try to find someone who spends time on their appearance? Even on MN where there are so many feminist viewpoints the majority of posters still expect professional colleagues to look like they've made an effort.

I don't understand why these things are important.

Presumably the more time they spend on their appearance the less they spend on doing the job you require them to do.

I used to work with someone who was fond of saying this about me. One of us was over-invested in my appearance and it wasn't me.

Why not just have a hairstyle that doesnt require blow drying or high maintenance?

Dont wear high heels.. nobody expects you to.

And to give you all a insight into the male perspective on grooming. I was out with two male friends on Sunday, and we had been partying all night on the Saturday. They were jealous that I could put on a bit of make up, and look reasonably refreshed and with it, while they couldnt disguise their tired eyes...

I worked in a hotel reception once. I was made to wear a suit type thing. All fine though i begrudged the jacket, i hated it and thought it was uncomfortable.
Anyways, i never wear make-up unless on a night out and even then it was just my eyes.
My managers and colleagues always made comments about me not wearing make-up and one year even bought me loads of make up for a xmas present. Hint much?

I thought it was so rude and made me even more stubborn to not ever wear it.
I wouldn't mind but i was the better of the receptionists, always praised for my customer services by the clients.
Wearing make-up does not affect my performance to do the job. I don't feel the need to wear make-up as i am often complimented on my skin and the fact other people think i am lucky as i don't need to wear it.

In the end i actually left as it all got too much and just felt like i was being personally attacked constantly just cos i dont feel the need to mask my face.
Hit a sore point with me there, sorry for the rant!

How long does it take to dry your hair/run a brush through it? A few min? I think people who can't plan into their day looking presentable (and dried brushed hair would count for that for me for men and women) are going to be judged for that. But then I don't find children with unbrushed matted hair cute either, but some people don't want to go into battle over it- I am more sympathetic to that than a grown adult who thinks having dry/brushed hair is a big time-consuming deal which might adversely affect time spent on their job.

The exception to this is that very curly hair that takes ages to dry- I had a friend with this and she just tied it back in a bun (it would take up to two days to dry) and looked lovely and smart. Dangling wet hair would have looked horrible.

Some things are under your voluntary control and some aren't. So your physical features and type of hair are just what nature dealt you. Level of grooming and type of clothes (assuming there is no work uniform) are a matter of choice (which may exist in unspoken form or be laid out in a code of conduct).

It's not directly relevant to how you use your brain in your job, but it's not irrelevant either, because the voluntary aspects of your appearance and how it fits the task in hand are a reflection on you. Notable scruffy outliers, such as Boris (or for a female example, Shirley Williams) aren't the norm. If you are truly exceptional, you can wear what you like. But most of us, much as we might like to think otherwise, just aren't.

There's a wider variety of acceptable working dress standards now than there was when I was starting out, which on the whole is a good thing. But there are still expectations, and I think it is risky to career progression/reputation to go too far against them.

YANBU. There are far more interesting things in life than primping and preening.

Your appearance in regards to grooming (rather than the looks you are born with) tells people things about you. That's the way it is, male or female. Wet hair implies laziness. It takes five minutes to blow dry hair (just so it's dry not straight etc) so wet hair says to people "I couldn't be bothered to take five minutes to look presentable" so they wonder what else you will cut corners with.

A pp mentioned odour I reckon that if a person is stinky it will affect their personal and work opportunities. (ds has a friend like this). It may mean they haven't washed their clothes properly (they still might have a shower every day).

Presumably the more time they spend on their appearance the less they spend on doing the job you require them to do

I don't get this at all. Surely there are working hours and personal time and you don't expect anyone to be blow drying their hair, or attending to any other personal matters during working hours?

Surely whether or not they've ironed their t-shirt shouldn't be a consideration?
For me it's about interest and respect. If someone I was romantically involved in regularly wore wrinkled and unironed clothes and took no particular interest in their appearance above the bare essentials, then the message I'd take from that is that they really couldn't be bothered. They're sending out take me or leave me signals.

I'm talking about general presentation and maintenance of appearance, not the embellishments of makeup, high heels, designer wear or fancy bags. It's not a feminist issue, it's a time management and effort issue.
If someone turned up once with wet hair, I'd think something had happened and they'd rather be on time than stay behind to dry it. If it was a regular thing I'd think they had little respect for the business environment or prioritized staying in bed instead of getting ready for the working day.

Who on earth blow dries their hair? My hair seems to respond quite well to being dried naturally and put in a pony tail. I mean, no-one forces you to have a certain hairstyle which requires blow drying. You could always go very short.

And if you want to start a new business relationship with them, its a good idea to meet them in person. You can ask people how their business skills are, but theres no substitute for meeting in person and seeing how they come across. Personally, I think attention to detail is a good sign in a person I want to do business with, and that extends to making an effort to look smart and tidy. That does not mean being caked in make up or blow dryed, just not scruffy, smelly or dirty.

Humans are a social species and our social interactions are hugely tied up with physical cues. It would be nice to think that in an advanced civilisation we can move beyond bigotry when it comes to appearance, but to expect appearance not to matter at all is very naive.

And while emotional compatibility will probably determine the success of a relationship, very few people bother to pursue a relationship with someone they aren't sexually attracted to, and that's rather tied up with what they look like.

Being neat, clean and tidy (spending time on one's appearance) is basic good manners. Who wants to work or live with a slob?

A girl in our serviced offices was in the kitchen with me the other morning and had wet hair, slapping 'round her face. For some reason it made me shudder- cold, wet hair on a freezing, crisp November morning? No thank you. How long does it take to throw your head upside down and blast it for a minute with a hairdryer to get the worst off?

A PP has made a good point about scruffy male celebrities having cultivated that as a "look"- to paraphrase St Dolly Parton, "it takes a lot of money to look this cheap".

Despite what Closer, Heat and Cosmopolitan would have us believe, I don't think most women are under pressure to look immaculate all the time. Anywhere I've worked, as long as you're clean and reasonably neatly presented people are happy. Ultimately if you turn up with wet (or greasy) hair and creased casual clothes, you're signalling to clients, "I don't give a shit about what you think of me". It doesn't matter how good you are at your job, you might not even get the chance to prove that to them if you give off those vibes.

When I meet someone I don't care about whether they are wearing expensive designer clothes or well-washed ones from primark. I don't care (if they are female) whether they wear make-up or heels, or dye their hair. I don't care (if they are male) whether they are clean shaven or sporting a beard and long hair. I don't care if they are fat, thin, young or old.

But I take careful note of appearance. Choice of clothing can depict an awareness - or lack of - your surroundings. The ability to respond to different environments and different people appropriately is an important social skill. A scruffy/dirty appearance may display a lack of attention to detail. Poor hygiene displays not only a disregard for themselves but also other people.

As you get to talk to someone, it becomes more apparent just what their appearance does, or doesn't, say about them. But first impressions matter and it would be foolish to pretend they don't exist.

But why? I'm not expecting appearance not to matter - I know it does - but I don't understand why.

People should make an effort on their appearance so that others think they are better at their job? It's ridiculous.

Are you the smelly kid at work OP? As for the why, get doing some reading about psychology, evolution and all that stuff to understand why appearance matters. Its not a modern day invention for appearance to matter at work and everywhere else.

A neat, clean and tidy appearance is more agreeable for others. You might not mind your own slobbery, but others do, and it will interfere with your relationship. Being clean and tidy is a strong cultural signifier that you are aware of others' feelings.

I work with someone who is obsessed wtih her appearance. Unfortunately she is rubbish at her job. My personal view is that if she put half as much effort into her work as she does into her hair she might do a better job.

Jolly have you not read the thread- people have pointed out that we are social animals, appearance is used as a signal for social orientation/awareness/healthiness and so on.

I am not sure what you mean by 'making an effort' with your appearance anyway- drying your hair isn't what I call 'making an effort' to be honest.

"Being shoddily dressed may well be indicative of the standard of work produced by that person, which then could reflect badly on the company they work for (if in a job)."

What? Standard of dress = standard of work?
Erm, maybe if your job is very, very easy. If it requires no more effort and skill than putting on clean socks does...

Otherwise there's no way I would equate someone's standard of work with their dress.

What do you want mechanics to turn up to work wearing? Pin stripe suits?

Jolly - it's my understanding that it is because we are basically mammals which live in social groups. Natural selection has always placed an emphasis on the fittest animals. That doesn't necessarily mean physically fit-for-purpose as behaviour has also affected evolution (especially in the case of humans), but it is noticeable that in species which live in hierarchical social groups the most successful tend to stand out in some way due to their appearance - either through sheer physical presence or the way in which they present themselves.

Even since the emergence of modern human behaviour there is a huge emphasis on appearance. It's how different tribes distinguished themselves and how allegiances were expressed. Expressing identity through appearance is characteristic to all humans.

If you think appearance really doesn't matter, consider why you wouldn't parade naked even in the height of a warm summer. That tells you everything you need to know about how powerful social norms are about appearance. You may a choice about how you present yourself even when you decide "not to make an effort" - that's a preference in its own right.

This goes back way into the archaeological record and predates the emergence of homo sapiens sapiens. It's not something that can be undone simply by trying to think about it in a more enlightened way.

Who on earth blow dries their hair? My hair seems to respond quite well to being dried naturally and put in a pony tail. I mean, no-one forces you to have a certain hairstyle which requires blow drying. You could always go very short.

You are aware that people have different hair types, and so not everybody's hair behaves exactly like yours might? My hair responds terribly to being dried naturally - a fine, frizzy mess. If I went very short, it would be an even worse fine, frizzy mess. Therefore to look presentable (especially for the workplace) I have to blow dry it.