to think that appearance shouldn't matter?

[JollyStoutGiant]

If you're looking to have a business relationship with someone surely you should simply require them to be good at their job. They don't need to have dry hair, make up on, a nice bag. Presumably the more time they spend on their appearance the less they spend on doing the job you require them to do.

Similarly if you're looking for someone to have an emotional relationship with. You need to get on with them. Surely whether or not they've ironed their t-shirt shouldn't be a consideration?

Why is it the case that humans, often, try to find someone who spends time on their appearance? Even on MN where there are so many feminist viewpoints the majority of posters still expect professional colleagues to look like they've made an effort.

I don't understand why these things are important.

This is my hour:

6am - up with kids, take them downstairs for breakfast. I eat breakfast with them (takes 30min).
7am - brush teeth, clean bathtub (ie spray bleach and rinse off while in shower), have shower, wash hair every other day, wipe down shower, replace towels in bathroom, moisturize, dry hair, set up bathtime for kids, do make up, get dressed, take dirty clothes downstairs for laundry and grab my packed lunch items from the fridge. If shoes look scruffy I polish them, if I need a spare pair of tights in my bag I grab a pair and I often need a 2nd clothing item if I am meeting DH for dinner afterwards.
leave for work at 8am. I have two kids aged 2 and 8 months. I get at least one interuption to all of this.

Leave house at 7.30am.

I enjoy the transformation from old crone with bed head hair into Joan Collins or thereabouts!

I am not very good with my hair so wear it medium length with a fringe making it easy for me to manage. Hairspray is brilliant and keeps my hair in place all day but not like a lego helmet, a gentle hold. I dye it so it is glossy and sleek not grey and bushy.

I enjoy putting on my make up, actually I love it. It's quite artistic to paint on, blend and smudge!

I thoroughly enjoy putting on nice clean, ironed clothes.

I don't go around preening or looking at my reflection in windows, I just feel good about myself and that confidence attracts other people and makes for better social interaction because in general, scruffy people are judged in society, rightly or wrongly. But I am well groomed for me, for my personal pride.

I don't want to schlepp around looking like Stig of the dump!

Want2b what's your point? That if you can do it anyone can do it?

Seems to ignore the fundamental issue that you do that out of choice, and it's just as valid for someone else not to do what you do. And they shouldn't be judged for it.

There is no way on God's earth that I'm getting up at 6am or getting my kids up at that time either! That's completely unecessary. Kids don't need to be bathed every morning (well, mine certainly don't) - they've been sleeping, not playing rugby in a muddy field.

And cleaning the bathtub - ye gads woman, are you quite mad???

You do this every morning? I like my sleep too much for this. My kids would be unbelievably bad tempered if I did that every morning.

Bunch of slatterns, we are

My point is that I don't think an hour is a lot of time to spend getting ready in the morning. If you want to be groomed you need time to do it. I don't care if it takes someone else 10mins. It takes me an hour to get out the door looking decent. Since someone commented on me spending an hour I thought I would break down what I did in that hour.

I don't care what others do or don't do. We all judge based on appearences and to say we don't is a lie. If you choose not to spend the time and look scruffy chances are others won't be bothered with you or you will need to someone extra to get the same attention that someone groomed gets. While you could say I have a choice, I don't really see it that way. If I am going to be taken seriously at work I must look groomed.

haha heart I lay everything out for their bathtime in the evening when they are normally filthy. My kids wake me up these days. I used to get up at 5am and sometimes do if I have a client that is further away or if I want to read a book in peace.

People form an opinion within 30 seconds of meeting someone new. Why give anyone the chance to form the opinion that one might be sloppy.

FWIW I like to be clean, I like my hair neat, I need a bit of make-up and I like to look neat, tidy and professional. I might not be style icon but I don't want to be scruffy either.

Eurgh. Just seen how young your kids are Want2b. I'd forgotten about the days of 6am wakings. Out the other side of that now here. I have to wake them (on school days) but you can guarantee the little buggers darlings are up with the lark at weekends!

Thankfully, the older two will sort breakfast now...

Considering shaving my head...

Although Christ knows what people would think of me then

Lesmisabs: "There is a school of thought that faces can tell you about a person's character" - it's called phrenology and it went out of fashion, oh, somewhere about 1900... What a shame people don't put as much effort into cultivating critical thought as they do into cultivating appearance, eh? (Also your pseudoscientific 'evolutionary' justification of your own aesthetic preferences is complete nonsense, speaking as a scientist).

Respecting yourself, being organised and doing a good job aren't connected to appearance at all. Professor Mary Beard (who I think looks fine, but has been criticised for her appearance) or Barbie? I know who I'd rather work with

Do you not see the hypocrisy of that statement? If respecting yourself, being organised and doing a good job aren't connected to appearance, why would you prefer one or the other when it comes to Mary Beard or Barbie? Surely you'd prefer neither given that their appearance does not affect their work or organisation?

I like to shower, moisturise, and be made up for drop off at school. Not because I live in a posh, affluent area or such nonsense but because I like to look nice for me, my standards. I don't judge anyone for their morning appearance but I do take ownership to have a little a lippy and in be day clothes, not Jammies or onesies. Again don't judge jammy wearing drop offees but think we should all make the best of ourselves and have fun. You look at photos of people in the forties, fifties, sixties and seventies and no one is lazy bugger to be in sleep wear.

Great drugs tho. Kidding!

Drgonz - only because they didn't have the stupendous nightwear we have now!

I leave for work at 6:45 most mornings. No way on the green earth am i getting up at 5:45 to tart myself up for the people i work with !

"I think most people would be uncomfortable with a medic who looked disheveled.

As they would if one had too much makeup or was wearing board shorts/low cut top/trendy ripped t-shirt etc"

Not in my experience, MrsDeVere. Board shorts and trendy t-shirts sums up the way my dentist dresses, and he is brilliant. Harder to get an appointment with him that anyone else in the practice. Scruffy looking hair too. World-class restoration work.

headsdown The paediatrican I take my kids to has a ponytail and wears greatful dead tshirts. The guys is still groomed though.

christmas I sometimes have to be up at 4am to leave for 5am. I still leave the house after eating breakfast and getting ready. The people I meet at 5.30pm don't know that I was up that early (although they can probably tell by the bags under my eyes).

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201208/im-successful-because-im-beautiful-how-we-discriminate-in-favor-attractive

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201208/im-successful-because-im-beautiful-how-we-discriminate-in-favor-attractive

Depends on what you mean by groomed, though, doesn't it, Want2b. Earlier in the thread some people were going on about context-appropriate business wear and professional standards. But the dentist in greatest demand in my practice is the one with scruffy hair and shorts on. Would the same posters demand he "make an effort" in order to demonstrate his professional skills?

It's never occurred to me to scrutinise the appearance of a mechanic or electrician I've hired. I've never assumed that the better presented librarian or archivist will be more knowledgeable. I've had great customer service from badly coiffed shop assistants. I don't care about my vet's unruly eyebrows. I don't remember the best lecturers I had being the best groomed ones.

Want2b, your earlier point that the partners where you work are on 500+ and the directors are the "technical" ones just seems to reinforce my point that the sectors where superficial matters really matter are all style and no substance anyway.

And then on the opposite side of the coin, I would prefer my plumbers and electricians to look professional, would like my dentists to be wearing appropriate clothes so I know they are as clean and sterile as they can be and would be more likely to approach the clean and tidy shop assistant because they look more on the ball. Yes, I may miss out on the diamonds in the rough but so far my life experiences just cement my opinions about appearances.

Heads That is not exactly true. Partners look better groomed but are nearly always just as technical as the directors. They just look more together. You can't make partner unless you bring in the $. The ones that don't bring in $ make director. Funnily enough they are also less groomed/put together.

Well why did you say that the directors were the "technical" ones then?

Earlier you said: "The partners are all presentable and directors are the technical ones. The partners make $500k+ a year and directors make $300k+ a year. I know where I want to be so I play the game and make an effort with my appearance."

Either this differentiation is based on appearance or on ability. Your post suggested it was based on appearance.

I don't think it matters if clothes are expensive but dirty clothes or greasy hair or perhaps (for a prospective partner) being very overweight to me shouts out that you don't care about your appearance - and would ring warning bells.

Head That is their role most of the time. Directors are given small jobs to run and spend most of their time in a technical area. The partners tend to do both client and technical work.

It is based on appearance. The better looking people bring in the $ and get promoted to Partner. The ones who are scruffy end up as a director. Nothing wrong with being a director but I would prefer to make partner and be able to do both technical and client work.