to think that appearance shouldn't matter?

[JollyStoutGiant]

If you're looking to have a business relationship with someone surely you should simply require them to be good at their job. They don't need to have dry hair, make up on, a nice bag. Presumably the more time they spend on their appearance the less they spend on doing the job you require them to do.

Similarly if you're looking for someone to have an emotional relationship with. You need to get on with them. Surely whether or not they've ironed their t-shirt shouldn't be a consideration?

Why is it the case that humans, often, try to find someone who spends time on their appearance? Even on MN where there are so many feminist viewpoints the majority of posters still expect professional colleagues to look like they've made an effort.

I don't understand why these things are important.

Well if it is just based on appearance, then as I said earlier it just sounds to me like your sector is all style over substance.

I don't see it as style over substance. In my experience the partners and directors have equal technical skills. The difference is in their appearance. If you are dumb but look the part you are not going to make partner or director. I see that as style over substance.

Oh I can see that the partners and directors might be equally skilled. Just that your prospects of promotion beyond a certain plateau ultimately depend on superficial matters.

Whereas in other sectors the skill ceiling is not so low. And decisions about career progression and seniority do not simply come down to good looks in a tie-break situation.

I have struggled with this. It shouldnt matter but it does.

Ive recently gave myself and little bit of an update and feel loads better, walking taller etc. Im educated and i think reasonably articulate I dont want to rely on clothes and make-up to convey I 'decent' or hwever you want to put it. But I like looking well put together, tidy etc.

My real friends who know me and i feel comfortable with know that I may be fully made up or or not and dressed quite casually.

I think in the workplace standards of dress have evolved and have become expected - much of this is related to conveying status etc.

I also never ot the whole 'fashion thing' - even though i enjoyed it..why.

I just think our appearence can be used to reflect or convey who we are inside. Though some people are adept at conveying this through other ways and do not seem to need to do this.

Nevertheless I can say I have re-discovered a love of clothes recentyl I have not experienced for some time.

This has been a real eye opener that so many of you think that being overweight should hinder job prospects. It's a very stupid attitude based on stereotypes not reality. I hope none of you are ever in charge of hiring people.

YABU, at least in the context of white-collar work. A basic requirement of all but the most back-office of office type jobs is an ability to be sensitive and adaptable to the surrounding social codes. Dress and appearance is a way of signalling that - essentially telling those around you that you have registered the accepted norms and are willing to work within them.

Turning up at a workplace with a smart dress code unwashed, or in a tracksuit or something, announces loud and clear 'I reject your social codes'. That is likely to make your colleagues wary of trying to work with you and, yes, making it more difficult to do your job.

FudgefacemcZ Lesmisabs: "There is a school of thought that faces can tell you about a person's character" - it's called phrenology and it went out of fashion, oh, somewhere about 1900... What a shame people don't put as much effort into cultivating critical thought as they do into cultivating appearance, eh? (Also your pseudoscientific 'evolutionary' justification of your own aesthetic preferences is complete nonsense, speaking as a scientist)

"Out of fashion", eh? gulp (and ignoring what I wrote about being able to tell a lot about a person's health from their appearance - not infallible but nonetheless possible)

Heres another piece of critical analysis for you (its called reading between the lines, awareness of context and nusance, whatever you prefer) - what you have written tells me you have great sensitivity about your appearance. Why is that, and why do comments suggesting that other people may notice it send you into such a flurry of would-be sarcastic adjective overspill? What you write is so full of personal agenda as to be meaningless.

Human beings selecting mates on the basis of physical appearance? How unreasonable! What kind of scientist are you?

I think as far as work is concerned it depends on context.

I work in the office of a very large Sure start Centre/nursery school, and although I'm not working with the children as such, there is always the possibility that I will have to wander round the garden to find a staff member, or chase a child that's trying to make a break for it if mum's got chatting on the way out. So whilst I wear smartish clothes, I generally wear a pair of funky Converse with them.

My job is now changing and my role is becoming more corporate and will involve me meeting people from other businesses/organizations - I wouldn't expect to wear brightly coloured baseball boots on those occasions without getting a few looks.

But why bother to shave your armpits at all Jelly ? If appearances don't matter, why do it? It's a natural thing. Armpit hair grows for a reason - we shave it off for a reason. Some people could view your daily hair washing as excessive. Some would argue that conditioner was completely unnecessary. You seem to be asking "why everyone else can't just be like me". Well the world would be a dull place if we were all the same, wouldn't it? You shave your pits. You condition your hair. Some people wear make-up.

I don't spend hours getting ready to leave the house... I don't spend a fortune on expensive lotions, potions or make-up... I don't spend hundreds of pounds on designer clothes. But I do own a pair of heels and I do pop on a bit of mascara when I feel like it. Why is that any worse than you shaving your pits? It's my time. It's my face. I really don't see the problem.

Heads Partner or director is not a low ceiling. Being promoted to director is a huge achievement as is being accepted into the partnership. Neither roles are to be sniffed at. If I don't make partner I would be very happy to accept a director role.

The issue I think is that to be seen as 'professional' men have to wash, wear clean, smart clothes, keep facial hair neat and brush their teeth. Whereas women have to if those things plus wear makeup, style their hair, shave all their body hair, often wear heels which are painful and impractical, have manicures and much more!
There is a huge gap here between what is expected of women and what is expected of men and it means women spend more of their time and thought on their appearance. That's the problem!

I meant a relatively low skill ceiling, not "professional" ceiling or earning potential. Fact is, if all that really distinguishes partners and directors are good looks, nice tailoring and soft peopley skills then the skillet demanded is not just that high.

They earn plenty though, and get bags of respect, so what's to fret about?

Agree with thants that the open support for discrimination against overweight people is shocking.

If you've never worked with, been friends with, taught or been taught by a talented, successful overweight person then your life experience must be narrower than your waist.

I have rare talents heads. I'm also impeccably well-groomed.

But if you fail to notice either of them, there's nothing I can do but pity you.

Sorry, I'm not totally sure what that comment's in response to limited?

Meh. I'm quite happy being scruffy. I'm currently mud splattered from earlier exploits in the great outdoors and am now on t'internet working in my office at home. Later I have a couple of meetings, and I will miraculously become clean and tidy (though certainly not dressed up to the nines) for those. And rapidly I will return to mud splattered after heading out into the mud again this evening.

I judge people who go around with perfectly manicured nails, inches of make up and perfect hair. Not because they can't be perfectly nice people who are great at their jobs, simply because we're unlikely to share similar interests and values. So I judge them as people I may happily interact with professionally or socially in certain situations, but am unlikely to strike up any meaningful friendship with. I expect they're thinking the same about me.

But the OP didn't ask: "Why should women make more effort than men?" This wasn't about gender equality. It was written as though none of us as human beings should care about appearances. That's a very, very different issue. Cave men cared about their appearances FFS, so it's a strange point to make in the way OP has made it.

EVERYONE cares about appearances to some extent. Some people wear a shed load of make-up, some people let their frizzy hair hang free, it takes some people 10 minutes to get ready and others 3 hours... but EVERYONE cares about appearances.

You might insist that you only get up and chuck on a t-shirt, but you still chose the t-shirt... you chose the shop where you bought the t-shirt... and you chose that t-shirt because you liked it more than the other t-shirts... and you chose it over and above your other t-shirts when you opened the wardrobe this morning. Much less effort than someone who took 2 hours sticking on their false eye-lashes... a bit less effort than someone who took 5 minutes to cleanse, tone and moisturise... but more effort than the person who rolled out of bed and did the school run in a onesie.

But that's not true. I chose the t-shirt because it was the most comfortable and practical. Not because of how it looked. I buy t-shirts from primark (cheap), jeans from Next (they do petite sizes so I don't have to take them up). I need petite trousers because otherwise they trail on the ground and get wet and uncomfortable.

I'm willing to concede that I brush my hair because of how it appears. The rest of my appearance is to do with comfort and speed. Hair is conditioned so it's easier to brush, armpits are shaved because I sweat less when i have less hair and I don't like having wet armpits as they feel sticky.

The comment about the guy going for the job at the bank caring about appearances is not right either. Surely he didn't want to wear a suit because he doesn't feel comfortable in them.

The state of someone's appearance can also indicate what type of personality they have, and what matters to them in life.
I presume for instance that you are not a GP, a judge or a airline pilot.

Perhaps you are a SAHM or a forestry worker or a farmer?Where no, what you feed the pigs looking like, does not matter one jot.

You mention a business relationship. It sounds like you would be comfortable with a scruffy estate agent. Would you trust them though?
Hmm, realises that an estate agent may not be the best example. I will try again. Would you be happy and trust a non ironed dentist?

heads Let me break it down... When you get to the level of being considered for director/partner, if you have shown you can bring in the clients and the revenue you are much more likely to make partner. Those who bring in clients have a much neater appearance on average than the ones who don't (directors). The tie-break isn't on looks, it is on who can bring in more money for the firm. Those who have the soft skills that enable them to bring in clients also tend to also dress better. It isn't rocket science.

I live in the US and in the NYM area women are a whole lot smarter on average compared to the UK. I also come accross many more women in senior positions in the workplace. Are the two correlated? IMO Yes.

Previously I have had others disagree with my opinion on dress when it comes to teachers. It kills me when I see female teachers wearing dress down clothes such as leggings. I don't care if they are comfortable. There are dress pants that are just as comfortable but look smart and professional. My neighbour is a teacher and looks very smart going into work each day. She makes an effort with her appearance and she is being promoted to Principal next year. She has taught kindergarden for the past 20 years. Her appearence has helped her command respect.

I live in the US and in the NYM area women are a whole lot smarter on average compared to the UK. I also come accross many more women in senior positions in the workplace. Are the two correlated? IMO Yes

Correlation is not the same as causation though. It may be that the causation is the opposite - women aren't commanding higher salaries of higher positions and as such are less able to put so much effort into their appearance (less money = less childcare, spare cash for clothing etc) or other factors - perhaps women don't dress as smartly in the UK because they do not perceive that they will be promoted anyway. Or any number of factors (who would know? I certainly don't!).

FWIW, there are certain occasions where I think it is highly important to be well presented. I spend a surprising amount of time in tweed, tie / stock and very impractical clothing. It didn't occur to me when I described myself as naturally scruffy upthread that actually I'd be appalled to rock up in certain situations without having put the required amount of time into appearances. Thus I am a hypocrite and a fool.

heads because your prejudice causes you to underestimate people and therefore puts you at a disadvantage.

So, thinking about it, why should I pity you

"But that's not true. I chose the t-shirt because it was the most comfortable and practical. Not because of how it looked. I buy t-shirts from primark (cheap), jeans from Next (they do petite sizes so I don't have to take them up). I need petite trousers because otherwise they trail on the ground and get wet and uncomfortable."

Cost is not the point. You will find t-shirts that cost exactly the same as the one you bought and that are just as comfortable and practical. Why pick that one? Even after you compare all the prices and practicalities, you will base your decision on what it looks like. To SOME extent. And there are plenty of stores that do petit ranges.

Petite jeans? I'm happy to go to whichever shop is most easily accessible to get them so if you let me know which other shops then I shall try them :)

hmm. You are not really engaging with people here, just having a talk about yourself really, so I will disappear again.