to think that appearance shouldn't matter?

[JollyStoutGiant]

If you're looking to have a business relationship with someone surely you should simply require them to be good at their job. They don't need to have dry hair, make up on, a nice bag. Presumably the more time they spend on their appearance the less they spend on doing the job you require them to do.

Similarly if you're looking for someone to have an emotional relationship with. You need to get on with them. Surely whether or not they've ironed their t-shirt shouldn't be a consideration?

Why is it the case that humans, often, try to find someone who spends time on their appearance? Even on MN where there are so many feminist viewpoints the majority of posters still expect professional colleagues to look like they've made an effort.

I don't understand why these things are important.

[KerwhizzedMyself]

Just want to clarify that my comments of whacking a hairdryer on for five minutes was about drying hair not styling it (although that was pretty clear). I'm no Nicky Clarke (assuming that's a hairdresser?) as my hair is nearly always in a ponytail because it is thick and difficult to style. It's a five minute dry ponytail though and looks neat and tidy. I would look a million times messier with loose wet hair drying at its leisure and a wet ponytail looks greasy and scruffy.

[Heartbrokenmum73]

Kerwhizzed - I'd love to comment but I'm enjoying your nickname far too much at the moment

And yes, Nicky Clarke is hairdresser (although I assume he'd call himself a 'celebrity stylist' or something equally as wanky)

[Heartbrokenmum73]

Awww MrsD, I always love your posts.

Can I come and live with you and you can sort my hair for me?

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

"given two managers with little between them in terms of performance, the one who has better presence, appears more organised & put together etc. will usually win out"

I think posynarker's comment is pretty telling. In most skilled jobs someone's grooming is of next to no importance. Are you going to send an electrician away because their shoes are scuffed? Are you going to reject a surgeon's opinion because they have damp frizzy hair?

Course not. Presentation matters most when the job is mostly about style over substance anyway.

[DiseasesOfTheSheep]

I'm terribly scruffy. I've selected my career path to minimise the amount of time I have to spend interacting with other people in person and especially minimising situations where I'd be expected to power dress / wear make up etc.

I am pretty clean though even if I mostly live in jumpers which smell of horse and dog

[Coupon]

if you think Mary Beard looks ok why use her as an example?

As I said, she's been criticised for her non-conformist appearance by some people.

you think women who wear make up and short skirts and have blonde hair are not to be trusted/liked/are stupid/lazy/unreliable

No MrsDeVere, those are your assumptions not mine. My point is that a normal-looking person may (or may not) be far more suited to the job than the over-grooming ("making an effort") some people think is necessary.

[Coupon]

Why does making an effort mean hair-do, make-up, etc? I'm clean, my clothes are clean, I don't smell. Why do I need to jump through further hoops?

Heartbrokenmum73 yes, exactly.

[woozlebear]

Mrs de Vere I don't think the word dislike is remotely dramatic, or implies that those who have said they would feel uncomfortable in a meeting with someone with wet hair are particularly passionate about it.

And I maintain that that dislike is unfathomable because I don't think anyone who has 'explained' it has done anything other than just reiterate the illogical assumptions its based on.

As for the comparisons, you originally mentioned bums hanging out of holes in trousers, not just holes. V different. And of course that and dirty faces are a hygiene issue. So no, I don't want it both ways. Vaguely logical and practical grooming norms I'm happy to accept. I'm not happy to accept it being considered ok for people to judge me disorganised cos I choose to go places with wet hair.

Btw I work in the City and always go to work with dry hair cos I'm well aware it's not received well not to. It's not worth my challenging this in practice. But I still maintain in principle that its bloody weird and pointless to give a shit if someone else has wet hair in any situation.

[Mumsyblouse]

I agree most people don't go around with dripping hair, that's why this wet hair thing is a red herring, most hair dries itself to look reasonably dry quite quickly and everyone I know who has hair that stays wet longer ties it back.

Partially wet hair could look greasy (hence wet look gels). Washing your hair once a week or less, as in the 1970's, did make some hair look greasy/wet (childhood memories) so my guess is that the current norm of pretty much having dried hair indicates it's nice and clean. You don't want to be working out if someone's hair is wet or just greasy.

[woozlebear]

I assume you're being as deliberately disingenuous with me as with poor Coupon.

A dirty face is unhygienic. People tough their faces a lot, and then touch things that other people touch.

[Mumsyblouse]

But I am happy to acknowledge this is a social norm and nothing intrinsic about the badness of wet hair, other than it looking a bit sloppy not to adhere to the social norm. My grandfather used to use a kind of hair pomade which was always greasy and disgusting and looked wet all the time, but then as I say, 30/40 years ago, washing was less frequent, so disguising this/applying fragrance/oil was quite common as was having your hair 'set' once a week (lots of older ladies still have this).

[Mumsyblouse]

I prefer a clean face on a child, but plenty of people feel it is imposing on their children's autonomy to forcibly wipe their faces and don't seem to mind them being dirty/having snot not wiped away. I find this unhygienic, but clearly plenty don't, given their youngest and most vulnerable (immune-wise) seem to have the dirtiest faces.

[woozlebear]

And on the subject of Coupon, I find it amazing that you're condemning her for the Barbie reference but are apparently fine with women who go out with wet hair being judged as disorganised.

Way to go.

[Want2bSupermum]

I work in audit for big 4. Appearences do matter and are important. The partners are all presentable and directors are the technical ones. The partners make $500k+ a year and directors make $300k+ a year. I know where I want to be so I play the game and make an effort with my appearance.

To say it takes 5mins to do hair is neither here no there if you don't know how to do your hair in 5mins. It takes me an hour to get ready for work in the morning. I take the time and arrive at work looking presentable. It makes me feel more confident. So, I get my hair done by using a 2000w hairdryer and having the hairdresser use shears on my hair to thin it out. Hair is dry enough in 10mins. Make up - I use neutrogena loose mineral powder, eyeshadow, mascara after eyelash curlers and laura mercia lipstick in a lip flesh colour. That takes me 5mins and I look alright.

[JollyStoutGiant]

An hour to get ready for work? Yikes.

I have a daily shower with shampoo and conditioner. I then brush my hair and give it a wee rub with a towel. I shave my armpits about once a week and have my hair cut about once every 9 months. I cut my nails every couple of weeks.

That's it. I figure that's less than 15 minutes a day.

[Mumsyblouse]

But adding on a 3-minute make-up and putting on 'nice' clothes instead of any old clothes doesn't take much longer. I don't spend an hour a day, I spend 10-15 min and I think look quite polished and get lots of compliments about clothes etc (mainly from charity shops as quite poor). Why is it ok to spend 10 min and not 15, or 15 and not 20 etc?

Anyway, clean and nice well-cut hair is always attractive, I don't think you need make-up at all and most of my colleagues don't wear it (but I am in a university and all the students have inches of it all over their faces, it's a blizzard of false lashes!)

[MollyBerry]

It would take me 45 minutes to get my hair dry I always go out with wet hair - I didn't realise it created a bad impression... I go to the gym before I go out for the day and unless I didn't shower after the gym in which case I'd be greasy haired and sweaty which is worse I have to have wet hair. I can't even go to the gym earlier because I go at 7 when it opens...

I'm always neatly dressed with minimal 2 minute make up on.

[woozlebear]

But no one is saying its ok to spend 10 mins but not 15 etc. They're just saying no one should be judged for spending less than x time.

Honestly I could spend a lifetime on mn and never get the weird contradictions on here. Make any kind of remotely subjective comment about women who make a big effort with their opinions and the right-on brigade will be right down your throat. But make any kind of malicious unfounded negative judgment about women who don't make 'an effort' with their appearance, and people will be falling over themselves to agree with you and justify each other.

[woozlebear]

Make a big effort with their appearance, obv, not opinions.

Typo