to think that appearance shouldn't matter?

[JollyStoutGiant]

If you're looking to have a business relationship with someone surely you should simply require them to be good at their job. They don't need to have dry hair, make up on, a nice bag. Presumably the more time they spend on their appearance the less they spend on doing the job you require them to do.

Similarly if you're looking for someone to have an emotional relationship with. You need to get on with them. Surely whether or not they've ironed their t-shirt shouldn't be a consideration?

Why is it the case that humans, often, try to find someone who spends time on their appearance? Even on MN where there are so many feminist viewpoints the majority of posters still expect professional colleagues to look like they've made an effort.

I don't understand why these things are important.

[JollyStoutGiant]

I can see the evolutionary benefit in choosing to associate with people who are clean. The DCs and I wash once or twice a day and clothes are washed after every wear. And our hair is brushed too.

Beyond that I can't see the benefit. Why is it better to choose a mate/business colleague who spends time on their appearance beyond ensuring that they're hygienic and free from germs?

[JollyStoutGiant]

Cross post Dahlen, thank you. You have genuinely helped me get to grips with this.

[Lilacroses]

I don't think either scenario taken to the extreme is desirable....someone so unconcerned with their appearance that they are dirty and very scruffy or someone who is so obsessed with their appearance that they are constantly rushing off to touch up make up or whatever. Neither of those would be great at work imho.

I work in a school which has a very relaxed attitude to dress code, people sometimes dress very casually (often in sports clothes if teaching P.E) but they all look clean and tidy. The children do not have a uniform either and come to school in comfortable casual clothes BUT there is a difference between being comfy and relaxed and dirty and scruffy. I think, the trouble is, if someone is very unkempt it can detract from the way they are veiwed professionally.

An example....we once had someone come for interview for a teaching position with wild, unbrushed hair and an old pair of trousers and black cardigan covered in dog hair. Her shoes were scuffed on the fronts worn right down at the back. I am possibly one of the most casual dressers at school but even I said "Crikey, if she can't even make an effort for an interview, that is worrying". She didn't intervieiw well anyway but even if she had that would have worried me. The person who got the job was a great teacher, also, fwiw an alternative dresser, a man with long hair and lot of earings but he was clean and tidy, and looked as though he had made an effort.

[Lilacroses]

I should add though OP that I haven't worked in a corporate environment for a very long time and am aware that expectations can be very different. I would struggle to cope with somewhere that judged you because you didn't wear lots of make up or have a certain hand bag!

[MinesAPintOfTea]

Ability to dress to fit into the group is a social skill which humans use to create group cohesion. It also rules out those who aren't prepared to make an effort to be part of the group or as romantic partners, fairly or not.

As for wet hair: I found this irritating so I now have a short, low-maintenance style. Vigorous towel-dry before breakfast, a bit of frizz-ease and run the brush through. Then blast the car fans at myself when I get in the car and its presentable by the time DS is dropped at nursery.

Makeup: a bit of concealer is all I wear most days. Its all on my dresser and is reachable whilst I'm throwing my clothes (from my fairly capsule, everything goes together wardrobe) on. I used to hate dress down Fridays because they required more thought than "grab any blouse, skirt/trousers, jumper, jacket from LHS of wardrobe".

[Coupon]

Who wants to spend time with people who expect you to "fit in" with them like a sheep, right down to how you look, and will cast you out if you don't conform? Why are they so afraid of difference? Leave them to it, and find people who are more open-minded.

[specialsubject]

no, they don't need to wear makeup. No, they don't need to have a 'nice bag' or indeed any bag at all.

they need to be clean and tidy, and not smell of anything (that includes a civet cat's backside). Wet hair indicates 'I got out of bed too late this morning' unless it is due to being caught in the rain.

[Lilacroses]

I know what you are saying in a way coupon. I knew I didn't fit into the corporate environment partly because of things like this. Specialsubject sums it all up nicely I think.

[elskovs]

I also think its a naïve thing to say. Ive said before that my husband doesn't employ very overweight people (or smokers) because he says it shows lack of self discipline and self respect.

It doesn't mean that he would write them off as a friend, but as an employee it does indicate possible poor performance.

I think I see his point.

[SundaySimmons]

I have pleasure in looking good. I look good for me and my personal pride in myself.

I never go out without having had a shower, make up on, and my clothes are ironed and my hair styled.

On the rare occasion that I have been running late I sacrifice drying my hair but I would never go into work with wet hair, I simply turn the blowers on in my car and open the windows if it is a warm day. I take a towel with me and I use it to dry my hair at traffic lights. Up in reaching work my hair is now almost dry. I go straight to the ladies and head is turned upside down and blasted with hand dryer until my hair is dried. I then brush, style and set with hairspray.

Grooming is very important to me. It's nothing to do with vanity, it's self respect, self esteem and taking pleasure in using different products and enhancing my features to please, me.

I also find it a social thing and enjoy giving and receiving compliments and will often ask a stranger what their lipstick is and I also get asked about hair, clothes and make up that I am wearing and it makes for good social interaction with strangers in lavatories, queues, shops etc.

No one ever went up to someone and asked, "excuse me but where did you get that crumpled skirt/greasy hair/laddered tights from?

And no one has ever said, "Your wet hair looks nice today"or "I really admire you for not brushing your hair" or "you look like a sack of shit tied in the middle, going somewhere nice?"

[limitedperiodonly]

Appearance does matter to you OP because you suggested that people who iron their clothes and dry their hair may not be paying proper attention to their work.

Whereas as you, who doesn't do those things, are not only asking us to believe that you're good at your job, but it's because you don't dry your hair.

[Thants]

Elskovs your husband should not be in charge of hiring people. His attitude is disgusting and discriminatory. Most people have vices! It doesn't mean they are bad employees. People can be overweight for a variety of reasons that have fuck all to do with him and could be as excellent at their job as a slimmer person. A Slim person could have an eating disorder that affects work performance but because they can hide that better they get the job! Obviously no body shape or mental health problem should be discriminated against but your partners line of thinking is flawed even if you discriminate! Poor you if you ever gain weight through pregnancy or menopause or depression because he will no longer see you as acceptable...

[Mumsyblouse]

Beyond that I can't see the benefit. Why is it better to choose a mate/business colleague who spends time on their appearance beyond ensuring that they're hygienic and free from germs?

Being hygienic is not a fixed thing, in our times it might involve daily washing and using deodorant, but in other cultures and times, these norms differ enormously. So, it's far from clear that just being hygenic is a baseline obvious thing, it means different things to different people as the threads on people who use towels for a month at a time demonstrate

Your hygiene routine (daily washing, washing clothes after every use) probably takes longer than some people putting on their make-up, yet you consider it essential. Others might find that excessive. What about trimming or cutting hair -is that about hygiene?

Symbolically, people who look nice appear to us to be hygenic, aware of social norms and in control. They might be mingers underneath or if we got close to them but that's all we can go on, the surface.

[ZingWantsCake]

Jolly

it's not just humans.
watch ANY nature films about animals' mating dances, mimicry, camouflage etc - appearances are incredibly important for survival, position in the group and so on.

why would people be different?

[Heartbrokenmum73]

My hair is frizzy by nature. And I have always been all fingers and thumbs when it comes to styling it, plus I have three kids to get sorted in the morning before I do anything else. I'm crap with makeup too.

I am fucking excellent at what I do. My students love me. Wearing makeup/having styled hair/wearing business-type clothes has fuck-all bearing on whether you can actually do a job.

And I agree with OP. We judge way too much on appearance. I'm naturally a scruffy person - I've spent ages getting ready to go out before now and still manage to look like I've fallen through a hedge half an hour later. I just don't have it in me to do the 'groomed' thing. This means nothing regarding me as a person.

Anyone who judges me on my appearance, rather than me can bugger right off.

[DuckToWater]

elskovs Of course a lot of people become overweight because their job takes over their lives too much and they don't have time to look after themselves.

Working in an office recently more people were overweight than not, I'd say. Sitting down for 8 hours plus a day is not particularly healthy.

[Lilacroses]

I don't agree with that Elskovs. I know many amazing, accomplished people who happen to be overweight...as Thants says, that is a highly simplistic way of judging whether people are "self disciplined" or not! One of my close male relatives, for example, looks fantastic, trim, fit, well groomed but he is actually a functioning alcoholic. Another friend of mine is tiny, very slim and everyone comments on her "perfect figure". She actually has a horrible autoimmune disorder that makes her life extremely unpleasant and means that she has to have lots of time off work.

[Coupon]

He wouldn't have employed Winston Churchill then elskovs? Obviously he was lazy with no self-discipline or self-respect

[Lilacroses]

Wish there was a "like" button coupon!

[MrsMook]

I've worked in schools with formal uniforms and no uniform policies. The first time I went to a non-uniform school on casual supply, I felt stripped of something protective. When I worked long term in a different school I had more experience so felt that less, but it does seem to subtley shift the relationships within the school and it was a little more informal. I liked it as it felt more natural. I did a lot of PE supply at one time so would go in dressed for a hockey pitch in winter, but pick up indoor lessons to fill in gaps, and it was strange teaching in a classroom in very casual clothing at first.

It is easier to feel more controlled and business like if you are dressed like that, especially if it's a setting where that's an external expectation. Where the dress code was informal, I'd wear neat jeans and well fitting tops and not very casual slouchy comfort clothes.

[Coupon]

Grooming is very important to me. It's nothing to do with vanity, it's self respect, self esteem and taking pleasure in using different products and enhancing my features to please, me.

Sunday so there's a link for you between self-esteem and grooming and using products. That doesn't mean these things are linked for everyone. People can find self-esteem in many other ways apart from appearances.

[mitchsta]

I agree that many people waste spend a lot more time and effort on their physical appearance than I do, but I also don't think I'm in a position to tell anyone what constitutes "too long" - just as I wouldn't tell someone whose obsessed with cleaning that they were spending "too long" scrubbing the bath - it's all relative.

By the sound of what you're saying though Jolly we should all be roaming around wearing nothing. Fuck it, let's not bother at all.

Appearances do matter. We're complex beings and appearance is an important social cue that goes far beyond simply being clean. As a rule, most of us wouldn't do business with wet hair - blow-dried or otherwise is beside the point - it is normal to do business with dry hair. It is not normal to turn up to an office job in a bikini. Nor is it normal to spend a day at the beach in a suit. You probably wouldn't attend someone else's wedding in a long, white ball-gown... it's all about social cues. I'm using extreme examples, but the situations you're describing are just variations of this really.

If you're talking about women wearing make-up or heels or whatever, then surely that's a personal choice? But again, it's about how people interpret each social situation. I'll happily spend a week going about my life nip to the local shop without wearing make-up. I know people who wouldn't. But I wouldn't go on a night out without any make-up. It's about reading the social situation you're in and dressing/behaving accordingly.

Going back to relationships, etc - even thinking about the most basic animals, surely you can see that a peacock's feathers or baboon's massive red arse are their equivalent of make-up... but we are far, far more complex than that. We are human beings, we have a consciousness, we have banking systems, we have governments and occupations and - like it or not - we read each other through physical appearance as well as ability to perform our jobs.

[elskovs]

Of course there are exceptions. Yes, a small percentage of slim people will actually be ill rather than self disciplined. But its still a good indicator generally. I said very overweight, not a bit porky.

I agree it doesn't sound very nice, but someone who has let themselves get so large that they are unhealthy will often be judged negatively on their appearance. That's the way it is.

[CailinDana]

The last two jobs I've (and incidentally the ones I've enjoyed the most and am best at) didn't involve face to face interviews - one was a telephone interview and the other was through email. For all they knew I could have had three heads or be 12 years old. It just didn't matter as clearly my cv and answers to their questions told them I was right for the job. One job did involve the public but the other (my current one) doesn't.

Beyond being clean I don't really care what I look like. My DH is similar but then he's an academicand scruffy is pretty much the norm!

[SundaySimmons]

Coupon, I think my age is a factor. We didn't have chavs when I was growing up. It wasn't well thought of to go out with holes in clothes or not look as near as a pin.

I remember being in tears as my mother pinned my bra strap to my dress as it was visible and I was worried the strap would be seen and I would be frowned upon! Ha ha

Celebrities back then were Grace kelly and being well groomed! nest and tidy was not just desirable but the norm.