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To think that using peer humiliation as a punishment for a quiet, sensitive child at the start of Year 7 is very bad practice by the school?

461 replies

pippalonglegs · 01/11/2013 13:21

Oh, I need help and advice please. I'm hurting so much for my DS that I can't think about anything else. Please bear with me - it's a story.

Basically, in a drama class the children were split into boys v girls. The boys started giggling and got themselves into a position in which they became helplessly unable to stop laughing. DS commented to his buddy that it was 'as if they were all on drugs'. Teacher (probably stressed) overheard, took exception to the comment and issued a detention. DS came home seeming so sad and withdrawn and was very upset. He told me about the detention and subsequently I emailed the school (Monday), taking great care not to take sides, simply in order to understand what had happened from teacher's point of view. On Tuesday she called me, and left a voicemail in which she said that DS had 'shouted out a completely inappropriate comment'.

I had no contact telephone number so emailed again (Tues) and explained that even prior to this, DS had been struggling with high school transition and was feeling sad to the point of really not wanting to go to school, and might perhaps benefit more from an alternative approach. I asked if we might talk about the detention before it went ahead. She didn't reply on the Tuesday, the Wednesday or the Thursday - in other words, she completely ignored/dismissed my concerns - and instead simply sent him home with a detention slip for the Friday. Of course I was furious, not least because my sensible and genuine concerns had been completely ignored, and I felt I'd been treated as a stupid, interfering parent.

But then the full picture emerged. I happened to be speaking to another parent who told me she had been very shocked to hear what had happened to DS, although initially I didn't fully understand what she meant. Her child gave an account (unprompted by me, I should add) that was identical to DS's. She said that nobody had even heard his comment (which in my opinion merely illustrated a mature understanding of the potential impact of drugs anyway) and that it was only the teacher flying off the handle that caused any interest in it. But - and this is the significant bit - it also transpired from this third party account that DS had been made to stand facing the wall until the end of lesson, and was at that point given the detention. And that was the bit that crushed me. DS is the most gentle, kind and sensitive of boys, has never been in trouble before, and there could have been no need to subject him to that kind of humiliation in front of his peers. Detentions and discipline, yes - but peer humiliation, most definitely no!!!

Suddenly it all made sense. No wonder he had come home from school so upset. And the thing that really distressed me was that he had felt so much shame and humiliation that he hadn't even been able to tell me about it. My heart broke for him. Little wonder that he was unwilling to go back into school to face his peers. Personally, I felt that such a punishment merely lacked a cap with a big 'D' on the front - a punishment more suited to 1913 than 2013.

I set about researching the pathogenic effects and the damage of peer humiliation (which has a profound impact on cognitive development and behaviour in children). Armed with the evidence, I emailed the head teacher with a formal grievance (the substantive points of which were 1. the failure of the teacher to engage with me and 2. the humiliation punishment that was used). That was acknowledged by the head, who said he would appoint his deputy (also the head of pastoral care) to investiagte, and would then meet with me to discuss the matter.

The deputy called me yesterday and Oh. My. God!!!! It has been a long, long time since I've spoken to anybody who was so bloody-minded and unintelligent. In spite of promises by the head, he refused to have a meeting with me, although I asked repeatedly if we could sit down to talk about my complaint. Every time I asked, his parrotted reply was that he 'would not normally meet with a parent to discuss a detention'. It didn't matter how many times I repeated that the detention was the least of my concerns, he wouldn't listen. In the end I even said that I felt like Jeremy Paxman and I said I wanted a straight answer to a straight question - but his reply was the same again!!!

In the end, I said I would redial and speak to the head, which I duly did. Of course, in the intervening minutes, the deputy had skidded down the corridor to forewarn the head and the head was, initially at least, every bit as hostile. We spoke for about ten minutes, most of which was decidedly heated, and I have to say, most (though by no means all) of the anger came from him not me! Clearly, he was unused to being challenged by a parent and he didn't like it at all. I felt his attitude was autocratic, verging on imperialistic - and told him so!! He actually told me that DS wasn't made to stand facing the wall, he was made to stand at the edge of the room, looking away from the class group!! Oh dear. Talk about semantics!!! Paradoxically, his refusal to accept that DS had been made to stand facing the wall seems clearly to indicate that he knew how unacceptable that would have been. I said that kind of ducking and diving, that kind of manipulation was fundamentally dishonest and slippery and wouldn't play out at all well in the press.

At about that point, we had a u-turn and he invited me in to see him on Monday for a cup of tea and a biscuit.

Basically, it would help me to know if anybody else has had a similar experience. I have the meeting next Monday and would really like to know what options I have/don't have. DS is really suffering and has lost a lot of confidence and self-esteem since this incident. I think it's something that he will carry around with him for the rest of his life.

OP posts:
jamdonut · 01/11/2013 15:46

Ok..it was a bit of a crap decision to give a detention. Unless he really Did shout out the comment, rather than just say it under his breath.One of those unfortunate wrong time and place things. It won't have killed him to face the wall for a bit. Made him a bit angry,and a bit embarrassed probably. I think you may have gone over the top, though, and will be forever known for this incident now. Hmm

At least you know the detention was for your son. I've twice had letters home for my son to have a detention. Both times it was for a boy with the same slightly unusual first name (and spelling) as my son,who happens to be in most of his classes. No problem pointing this out, especially as mine was off sick on the day one of them was issued!!

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 15:52

I realise the school wouldn't like it noble,but (and I mean this is a heartfelt way,rather than an inflammatory way) if I think something has been done with my child that I think is not just,I will stand up for them anyhows,whatever the escalation.
If I was in this situation and the school chose to discuss it with me properly prior to the detention,of course I would be open to having my view changed.But on the face of it,with no discussion,this is not a situation I would feel to be reasonable. Plus I fail to see how it would be productive.

Surely that can't be wrong?

larrygrylls · 01/11/2013 15:54

OP,

I think the teacher was a bit unfair here, based on your post. And I do get why 'good' boys and girls get more upset when they are penalised, especially if they feel it is unfair. However, I also think that you massively overreacted. Your son is at the ideal age to understand that the adult world is complicated and frequently unfair. On that basis, although you feel he was hard done by, he needs to 'man up' (for want of a better phrase) and serve his detention and then forget about it. If he feels you are on his side, it will do him no permanent damage at all and may even be character building.

I have no idea where you did your 'research'?! I think for the effects you suggested to happen it would have to happen with great frequency. In addition, I think that to affect cognitive development, the child's age would have to be far lower.

Noble,

You are someone whose posts I always admire and generally agree with. However, your comments about crying year 7s are a little harsh. Do you really push a child to cry and then ignore it? Of course it is all context specific but maybe you are becoming a little hardened and need to rethink somewhat (meant politely).

noblegiraffe · 01/11/2013 15:56

Verysmallsqueak, if you go in guns blazing over your kid being given a detention for actually misbehaving (making a silly comment about another group doing a performance), then you might find yourself in school quite a lot.

Parents arguing the toss over minor things like this is a pain in the arse and makes teachers wary of imposing any discipline as it will be followed by exceptional time-wasting by over-protective mum.

JustAnotherFucker · 01/11/2013 15:59

I wonder if you would call a 16 year olds employer too though very? If you considered a work place sanction was unfair? Think messing about and sent home from shift early, therefore loss of pay. This happened with a friend of mine in a popular fast-food establishment many moons ago. Friend was mortified!

Where do you draw the line?

I drew it at the end of primary. From Yr 7 on the dc's are on their own Grin

TheGonnagle · 01/11/2013 16:01

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shellyf · 01/11/2013 16:02

Noble didn't say she tries to make them cry from what I have read.They cry,I believe, because that is what works at home.
Many High Schools have well over a thousand pupils.Should teachers ask permission from potentially two thousand parents before giving out punishments?
Too many children are being taught that it doesn't matter what teachers say mummy/daddy will sort them out and have their punishment cancelled.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 16:02

With all due respect noble I think that teaching a child to stand up for what is right and wrong is a very valuable lesson.

I don't believe it's being in the least bit over-protective - on the contrary I think its not the easy route.

It'd be far easier to sit back and just comply,even if you don't agree.

This is not a minor thing.

larrygrylls · 01/11/2013 16:04

"They cry,I believe, because that is what works at home."

I would be really surprised if many (any?) 10-11 year olds are good enough actors to make themselves shed real tears.

noblegiraffe · 01/11/2013 16:05

No larry, I don't push a child to cry, of course I don't. I'd really rather it didn't.

However, I have had Y7s cry when they have been rightly pulled up on their poor behaviour. And I mean being silly, disrupting lessons, constant talking over me. They are simply not used to being called out on it. You can tell that crying is a tactic that has worked at home to stop a punishment being doled out. But it doesn't, and shouldn't work at school. If a kid is crying simply because they are being told off, then are you really saying I should go soft on them or stop telling them to behave themselves?

I've also then had overprotective parents come in guns blazing for making little Johnny cry. Then they've been faced with a list of Little Johnny's actual misdemeanours and I've been backed up by SLT.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 16:06

Just I hope by then my kids will know how to stand up for themselves by then because I will have taught them from an early age!

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/11/2013 16:06

larrygrylls I could cry on demand. We are in our 40s and my cousin still talks about it with awe. Very useful skill.

Minnieisthedevilmouse · 01/11/2013 16:08

Bloody hell. I wonder how you will react when an actual incidence occurs.... This seems trivial beyond belief.

larrygrylls · 01/11/2013 16:09

Noble,

"If a kid is crying simply because they are being told off, then are you really saying I should go soft on them or stop telling them to behave themselves?"

I think that if a child starts really crying (real tears, properly upset), they deserve a sympathetic hearing in private. Of course, at that point, you will continue to explain to them what they have done wrong and that they need to do their detention etc, but at least you have shown them a human face and given them a fair hearing.

Am I wrong to think that?

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 16:09

shellyf they shouldn't automatically ask a parents permission for punishment.

But if a parent asks specifically to discuss a particular punishment over a specific incident then that is quite quite different.

noblegiraffe · 01/11/2013 16:10

very, teaching a child to stand up for what's right and wrong is a valuable lesson.

Teaching them to whine and get mum on the case when they get pulled up for misbehaving at school is not a good lesson.

And lots of kids actually go that route. I've had a mum put in a complaint that I was picking on her kid for telling him to do some work instead of staring out of the window. He was in Y11 and a couple of months before his maths GCSE. Hmm

teaand5biscuits · 01/11/2013 16:10

OP a similar thing happened to me when I was your DSs age and I felt really embarrassed, it was the first punishment I ever had in school.
However I didn't do it again and I just used it as a 'guess what mad miss X did' story. Also it didn't have any lasting impact on me, I felt silly at the time but no-one really cared about it in reality and I doubt any of my peers remembered it after a few months.

I think the punishment was a bit extreme but I would of just told your DS that it is one of those things, he knows not to do it again and just made it a funny story to tell his peers if he was still upset about it.

Had my mum gone in the way you have I would of hated her for it because I was shy and quiet and what you did would mean that the head and all the other teachers would know who I was, who my mum was and I would of been paranoid that they would treat me differently or think that I was bad.

My advice to you now would be to calm down and go in on Monday looking mostly at the way your complaint was dealt with and just getting assurances that your DS is okay in school.

DollyTwat · 01/11/2013 16:11

Both my dc can cry at will. Ages 8 and 11
I can tell its fake, but I'm their mum.

shellyf · 01/11/2013 16:11

larrygrills

It would surprise you how many children can turn on tears.
For the record I am not an evil punishment giving teacher:-).I work with fantastic primary (4-11) pupils and rarely have to reprimand any of them.
I am also a mum to two young adults who always blamed teachers when they were in trouble at HS.After discussion they generally admitted that perhaps the teacher/s had a point.
Bowing out now as I usually just lurk.
Hope the deputy never finds out he was labelled as unintelligent by OP.

riskit4abiskit · 01/11/2013 16:12

It's parents like you who make teaching hellish.its almost like a drip drip drip of being made to feel weary of the profession;undermined by parents, wasting time dealing with the incident when there are lessons to plan and books to mark, worry about if senior management will take the parents side, kid plays up more on future due to parental attitude, no time to follow up sen concerns etc etc.

I am sure you are lovely op and you sound like a very caring parent but seriously the teacher will be eating out on this story for months.

TartyMcTart · 01/11/2013 16:12

OP, I think you have completely overreacted BUT I know how it feels when you're sat at home worrying about your kids.

I posted on here once when I was panicking about something that had happened to DS1 at school. Everyone who replied laughed, joked and told me how ridiculous I was being (in a nice way!) and it actually made me feel better knowing I was being completely daft and over the top.

Hope the same goes for you too.

Ilovegeorgeclooney · 01/11/2013 16:12

Similar issue today. It is half term and our Year 11's have English GCSE exam on Tuesday. For the whole of the past half term I have been running revision sessions on Tuesday/Thursday 3.15-4.30pm. I generally have at least 20 pupils attending. Over the same period of time I have had 18 e-mails( all replied to) and over 20 phone calls from a mother re. her son and how such a quiet, sensitive and quiet boy is struggling. Each week she assures me he will attend, each week he fails to but is happily playing table-tennis with his friends on the table two floors down, each week I phone her to tell her and she makes excuses for him. Initially I would send a pupil, who then misses part of the session they have turned up to, to remind this child. However he would respond with a negative and I no longer do this.

Today, in half-term, I was running a session from 9-12, over 35 pupils turned up. Again this pupil was playing table-tennis. At 9.45 he and his friend turned up, at 10.30 we had a comfort break and he did not return at 10.45. We all worked until just after 12 when we left. As I left the school at 12.30pm his mother stopped me and asked why we were so late finishing. I reported the above and she started shouting at me about her son's sensitivity and how it must be because other pupils were there and why hadn't I personally gone down to collect him/ phoned her.

As a mother I do adore my son but........

larrygrylls · 01/11/2013 16:13

Clearly turning on the tears is a skill more prevalent than I expected! I still could not continue to bawl out a child who was crying. I would still punish them but I would try to calm them first. But that is just me.

noblegiraffe · 01/11/2013 16:14

larry the telling off and crying was done in private. Well, outside the classroom at least. And no, they weren't properly upset, I'm not talking sobbing. Crocodile tears only.

Interestingly, I remember a discussion with another teacher about a kid crying being told off. The same kid being a pain in the arse across the school.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 16:15

I am discussing this particular situation as described by the op.

If my child was punished and deserved the punishment I would be right behind the school.

But in the op's situation she wanted a discussion about the situation. That's not teaching the kid to whine.

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