Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think that using peer humiliation as a punishment for a quiet, sensitive child at the start of Year 7 is very bad practice by the school?

461 replies

pippalonglegs · 01/11/2013 13:21

Oh, I need help and advice please. I'm hurting so much for my DS that I can't think about anything else. Please bear with me - it's a story.

Basically, in a drama class the children were split into boys v girls. The boys started giggling and got themselves into a position in which they became helplessly unable to stop laughing. DS commented to his buddy that it was 'as if they were all on drugs'. Teacher (probably stressed) overheard, took exception to the comment and issued a detention. DS came home seeming so sad and withdrawn and was very upset. He told me about the detention and subsequently I emailed the school (Monday), taking great care not to take sides, simply in order to understand what had happened from teacher's point of view. On Tuesday she called me, and left a voicemail in which she said that DS had 'shouted out a completely inappropriate comment'.

I had no contact telephone number so emailed again (Tues) and explained that even prior to this, DS had been struggling with high school transition and was feeling sad to the point of really not wanting to go to school, and might perhaps benefit more from an alternative approach. I asked if we might talk about the detention before it went ahead. She didn't reply on the Tuesday, the Wednesday or the Thursday - in other words, she completely ignored/dismissed my concerns - and instead simply sent him home with a detention slip for the Friday. Of course I was furious, not least because my sensible and genuine concerns had been completely ignored, and I felt I'd been treated as a stupid, interfering parent.

But then the full picture emerged. I happened to be speaking to another parent who told me she had been very shocked to hear what had happened to DS, although initially I didn't fully understand what she meant. Her child gave an account (unprompted by me, I should add) that was identical to DS's. She said that nobody had even heard his comment (which in my opinion merely illustrated a mature understanding of the potential impact of drugs anyway) and that it was only the teacher flying off the handle that caused any interest in it. But - and this is the significant bit - it also transpired from this third party account that DS had been made to stand facing the wall until the end of lesson, and was at that point given the detention. And that was the bit that crushed me. DS is the most gentle, kind and sensitive of boys, has never been in trouble before, and there could have been no need to subject him to that kind of humiliation in front of his peers. Detentions and discipline, yes - but peer humiliation, most definitely no!!!

Suddenly it all made sense. No wonder he had come home from school so upset. And the thing that really distressed me was that he had felt so much shame and humiliation that he hadn't even been able to tell me about it. My heart broke for him. Little wonder that he was unwilling to go back into school to face his peers. Personally, I felt that such a punishment merely lacked a cap with a big 'D' on the front - a punishment more suited to 1913 than 2013.

I set about researching the pathogenic effects and the damage of peer humiliation (which has a profound impact on cognitive development and behaviour in children). Armed with the evidence, I emailed the head teacher with a formal grievance (the substantive points of which were 1. the failure of the teacher to engage with me and 2. the humiliation punishment that was used). That was acknowledged by the head, who said he would appoint his deputy (also the head of pastoral care) to investiagte, and would then meet with me to discuss the matter.

The deputy called me yesterday and Oh. My. God!!!! It has been a long, long time since I've spoken to anybody who was so bloody-minded and unintelligent. In spite of promises by the head, he refused to have a meeting with me, although I asked repeatedly if we could sit down to talk about my complaint. Every time I asked, his parrotted reply was that he 'would not normally meet with a parent to discuss a detention'. It didn't matter how many times I repeated that the detention was the least of my concerns, he wouldn't listen. In the end I even said that I felt like Jeremy Paxman and I said I wanted a straight answer to a straight question - but his reply was the same again!!!

In the end, I said I would redial and speak to the head, which I duly did. Of course, in the intervening minutes, the deputy had skidded down the corridor to forewarn the head and the head was, initially at least, every bit as hostile. We spoke for about ten minutes, most of which was decidedly heated, and I have to say, most (though by no means all) of the anger came from him not me! Clearly, he was unused to being challenged by a parent and he didn't like it at all. I felt his attitude was autocratic, verging on imperialistic - and told him so!! He actually told me that DS wasn't made to stand facing the wall, he was made to stand at the edge of the room, looking away from the class group!! Oh dear. Talk about semantics!!! Paradoxically, his refusal to accept that DS had been made to stand facing the wall seems clearly to indicate that he knew how unacceptable that would have been. I said that kind of ducking and diving, that kind of manipulation was fundamentally dishonest and slippery and wouldn't play out at all well in the press.

At about that point, we had a u-turn and he invited me in to see him on Monday for a cup of tea and a biscuit.

Basically, it would help me to know if anybody else has had a similar experience. I have the meeting next Monday and would really like to know what options I have/don't have. DS is really suffering and has lost a lot of confidence and self-esteem since this incident. I think it's something that he will carry around with him for the rest of his life.

OP posts:
shewhowines · 01/11/2013 23:58

I read it that the ops son wasn't involved in the laughing but was taken aback by all the giggling and said " it's as if they are all on drugs" .

Was he involved in the giggling?

If he was in fact frustrated by the giggling then the teacher was wrong, but we all sometimes make wrong calls in the heat of the moment. I think the ops reaction has made it into a bigger deal for her DS than it would have been. This is what could potentially damage him, rather than the incident itself. A better reaction would be to sympathise, say these things happen. Lets move on and forget it.

Now damage limitation. What does DS want you to do? If you do go in I'd just concentrate on the fact that the teacher should have got back to you sooner, rather than the incident itself. Be calm. You do sound a bit loony tbh - even if it is a genuine concern.

If he was involved in the silly giggling then the comment was inappropriate and you are definitely bu.

Valdeeves · 02/11/2013 00:31

Pippa - ten years of teaching in high school allowed me to read between the lines of your post. ( Drama too - so I can REALLY picture that lesson. )

  1. I think your little one may be a bit more cheeky/lively/defiant than you think. Believe me our little angels at home are often not little angels all of the time at school - especially amongst a large group of peers acting up.
  2. I don't like his comment - it's attention seeking - I wonder what he did to lead up to it which might have made it the last straw for detention?
  3. Facing a wall - not great, but we aren't allowed to send kids out the room anymore. It might have been a last attempt to stop the attention seeking and avoid detention.
Not saying I agree or like it - not into humiliation myself.
  1. The head teacher is mad at you because you driving him crazy over one detention.
Believe you me - its just 30 minutes sitting still - they won't be pulling his fingernails out. You've had your say - let it go.
LoopaDaLoopa · 02/11/2013 00:48

Ahahahaaahaa!

hahaha

hahaha

(sorry!)

This is a joke, right?

BoneyBackJefferson · 02/11/2013 00:48

morethanpotatoprints
"Maybe if more teachers earned respect, then parents would support them more."

I couldn't give a monkeys if a pupil respects me, (it makes life easier in the classroom). I do however care that they respect the other pupil's right to learn.

Frankly if you can't respect the teacher then at least have the common decency to respect your classmates.

Caitlin17 · 02/11/2013 01:28

Just wondering, has anyone ever owned up on here to having a noisy child with the hide of a rhino?

Year 7 is age 11/12 ? (we use different terminology in Scotland) If so I think the comment was smart-alecky, showing off.

sashh · 02/11/2013 03:07

As for the domino effect, if employees were laughing, wouldn't you quietly ask whoever you felt was the ringleader to see you in your office? Or would you ask an adult employee to stand facing the wall? Is it accetpable to humilate children but not adults?

But the teacher can't do that can they? The teacher did the next best thing, remove from group and break eye contact.

Eggsiseggs · 02/11/2013 03:12

Oh dear. I mean this very kindly, but you are over-reacting to this now IMO, and it won't help DS at school in the long run.

YANBU about your DS being made to face the wall.

YABU to keep reacting to it. This teacher will now (I presume) have been spoken to/made to account for what happened. The main issue has been highlighted.

Everything else is a bit of an overly emotional reaction to a day-to-day occurrence at school. Your son made a cheeky comment when his peer group were being badly behaved. Not the crime of the century, but a detention is defensible.

Hope it goes well for him - sorry to hear he is having a hard time with transition.

Want2bSupermum · 02/11/2013 03:18

potato I teach my DC to respect the police, fire serive and paramedics in addition to teachers. They are people who enrich our community and their actions alone command respect. They are people who put themselves out there for the benefit of society. We send our children to school to learn. That is their sole responsibility and therefore I expect them to at least behave themselves.

If I didn't think a teacher was being fair or right it would be something I would take up with the school without my child knowing. As far as my child is concerned I am on the side of the teacher.

Dominodonkey · 02/11/2013 04:09

wanttob I think I love you...

craig you are absolutely right. Respect for teachers used to be a given- obviously some children still misbehaved but parents assumed the teacher knew what they were doing until proved otherwise.

The fact that the posters gm story is still talked of nearly 100 years later doesn't prove people have always argued with teachers. It proves it was so rare that it is noteworthy a century later!

Op - I would have sent your kid outside , had a moan, no detention . But you are a nightmare parent and need to calm down.

Dominodonkey · 02/11/2013 04:12

And home edders- you are doing the right thing - you clearly don't believe in authority or discipline so school would eh awful for you, your kids and their teachers. Maybe the op should consider the same thing.

ilovesooty · 02/11/2013 04:46

Good point Boney

All individuals in the class have the right to access learning and the OP ' s child was compromising that.

SweetCarolinePomPomPom · 02/11/2013 05:12

Only read the OP, but let me get this right:

The teacher was completely out of order and has probably emotionally scarred your poor, delicate baby for life. She refused to meet with you to discuss this awful miscarriage of justice.

The deputy head was a rude, obstructive, unintelligent idiot who also refused to meet with you to listen to you rant some more, even though he'd already listened to you rant on the phone.

The head is even worse than the deputy head. He's the third person in a row to fail to recognise that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

Sad

It's so tough trying getting by when one is surrounded by a world full of blithering idiots isn't it?

I think it would be best for teachers everywhere if you withdrew your son from school and HE'd from now on.

SweetCarolinePomPomPom · 02/11/2013 05:16

In fact I am going to have to advance search all of Pippa's other posts now to see if she is always this barmy.

SweetCarolinePomPomPom · 02/11/2013 05:18

None there. Sad Shame. I fancied a laugh as I'm bored and no-one else is awake.

differentnameforthis · 02/11/2013 06:57

I think you have escalated this far beyond what was necessary.

He made an inappropriate comment (that doesn't to me sound like it "illustrated a mature understanding of the potential impact of drugs" - because not many drugs make you laugh uncontrollably) that the teacher felt needed dealing with.

You emailed her, she replied, you replied, she didn't. Did it not occur to you to perhaps to go in & see her? Or email a reminder that the issue was still unresolved in your mind? Perhaps she didn't get the email? Your son isn't her only student & I don't think teachers have all day to reply to emails!

You need to ask your son why he felt he needed to leave out a major part to this "punishment". Perhaps he knew this would ensue & wanted to avoid the drama?

You weren't there, you have no idea where this other mother got her information from & how reliable it was. I find it hard to believe that no one heard the comment except the teacher.

You are very uncomplimentary about the whole school, filling out your post with daft sentences like "in the intervening minutes, the deputy had skidded down the corridor to forewarn the head" Of course he told the head, that it is duty as a deputy!

I don't think you are helping matters at all & are just making your son's transition to high school all the more harder.

differentnameforthis · 02/11/2013 07:00

I said that kind of ducking and diving, that kind of manipulation was fundamentally dishonest and slippery and wouldn't play out at all well in the press.

And this...threatening to go to the press over what is, in the grand scheme of things, a really small incident is bizarre, not to mention attention seeking & imagine how hard your son would find settling into school with his face all over the press!!

BalloonSlayer · 02/11/2013 07:26

Funniest OP ever!

just taking the first 2 paragraphs for starters, OP, how many detentions do you think teachers hand out in a week? Do you think teachers expect to get into an email discussion with the parents about every single one of them?

I love the line "I felt I'd been treated as a stupid, interfering parent. "

Thats coz you is. Wink

Synthiseyes · 02/11/2013 07:40

Whilst teachers sometimes make mistakes in the classroom, more often than not, they do what is right in the classroom. They are trained professionals. It is, however, right to express concern if there are real uncertainties with what it seems your child has experienced in school.

However, in school, as in life, there are lots of minor and more significant injuries and injustices. If they are not cataclysmic, they do make us stronger. One only needs to look back at one's own childhood to see how we dealt with things that passed us by. "Kicking butt," at school and removing any impediment to your child's progress at school is just likely to deskill them from being able to deal themselves with any setback in the future, as well as labelling you as a toxic parent.

One needs to be very careful about hearsay. When a story comes home it comes from a child who adds spin to a story that might already be incomplete (even if they are very honest children), it then is spun by a parent and then it is then spun by the receiver. This is very unreliable information. A good teacher will be honest about what happened but will also be aware of the bigger picture.

The school also needs to be supported. If something happens that you're concerned about a quiet word about how things might be dealt with better next time, with the benefit of hindsight, is better than undermining the school - and this is not in the interest of the child either.

Honest, sensitive and well behaved children can be quick to paint things in a different light because when things go wrong they don't know how to act (it happens for them so rarely). Often their first reaction is to protect their good name and unfortunately many say what will protect them first. Sometimes it is the least well behaved children that are actually the most honest. (They know they did something wrong, they've been through it before, they know things will be looked into, they know they get the best hearing if they're honest about it!)

youarewinning · 02/11/2013 07:50

Haven't read the whole thread but here's my pennies worth anyway!

  1. You DS made a comment - it was an immature comment but I'm sure he meant it harmlessly.
  2. The boys were all giggling uncontrollably so the teacher was obviously feeling a little under pressure. 3)You DS was issued a detention for his silly comment - he needs to toughen up and accept that actions have consequences - I doubt he'll make such a comment again. Even extremely kind, shy and sensitive people do and say insensitive things.

Mainly though my concern is your reaction to this. Instead of saying to your DS you felt the teacher was harsh and that you don't agree with him having to face the wall and giving him the tools to deal with the punishment you've looked very deeply into the psychological effects and involved yourself heavily with the school. I don't agree that the DHT and the HT sound are if they have great people skills and it does sound very autocratic but surely your DS needs the skills to politely say to teacher or SMT that he felt humiliated by the punishment and ask if SMT would expect a teacher to face a wall in a meeting because the were laughing uncontrollably. And I can assure you that staff meetings can pan out like that!

I'm not denying that situations like this do impact on a child's learning and self esteem - but that's more when its happening at least 3-4 times a day and daily - not a one off incident.

superstarheartbreaker · 02/11/2013 07:52

I really bdon't understand how being madevto face the wall will scar him for life? His comment aboutvthe srugs was innappropriate. Tell him tovresist such coments in future.

harticus · 02/11/2013 07:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

TiredDog · 02/11/2013 08:32

That's troll hunting harticus.

If you don't think a post is genuine, walk away or report. The poster sounded genuinely upset I'm hurting so much

The transition to secondary is difficult and some children are more sensitive than others as are their mothers. I think OP over reacted/didn't handle this well but I also think the school didn't either.

No one has asked if this mum trots into school regularly or if this is a first? If it's a regular occurrence then yes the Mickey taking and harsh remarks are possibly what is needed to make her recognise inappropriate behaviour.

If this is her first issue with school then maybe the school could establish a better relationship with her by one meeting or one conversation over the phone? If teachers want support they need to encourage that. The handling of this if it is a first occasion has been poor and unhelpful.

I agree with the poster who said any issue I had with school would be taken up privately and my stance with DC is to always back the school. However if I felt the school was at fault I would discuss with them.

I have had DC at school since 1996 and have never had a head or deputy be as rude to me as the OP describes. Whether it's because I have been a 'good' parent or because I've been lucky to have good teaching staff is impossible to say.

Teachers are not gods. They are as fail-able as me. They do a difficult job and I don't think should waste their time dealing with trivial disputes because parents can't accept the discipline their child is given however on a first occasion a discussion might have helped this mum see what she can do to work with the school.

TiredDog · 02/11/2013 08:37

I often post on this forum in support of teachers who I think do a very difficult job and receive little parental support or understanding.

The posts from several teachers on here letting us know that the staff photocopy planners to pass around the staff room and laugh at, have sweepstakes to see who can irritate a parent enough and can use their power to prevent certain children from going on trips are shameful for the profession.

I appreciate you are often frustrated and it can seem very one sided with constant criticism in the media and on social sites but you are professionals. Gloating about it on a public website will harm everyone's perception of your profession. Poor behaviour.

Canthaveitall · 02/11/2013 08:56

Yabu. You are completley over reacting. Are you going to follow up every person who upsets your son in his life? Learning to deal with unfortunate events without the help of mummy is one of the best life skills we can give our children. He was asked to face a wall, that's it. It's not ideal but its certainly not emotional torture.

Admittedly I think the school have handled it badly but they probably think you are over reacting. They have to be able to discipline your son without you undermining them. You would have been better to assume there were two sides to every story and when the detention was handed out he would have to suck it up even if he didnt see it as fair. Once the stand facing the wall bit came out then perhaps a meeting booked with the teacher to find out their version would have been ok. I paint a united front with teachers to my children. I think teachers have a stressful job and its important parents work with them and are not blonded by little johnny version of events.

Canthaveitall · 02/11/2013 08:57

I meant blinded!

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.