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AIBU?

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To think that using peer humiliation as a punishment for a quiet, sensitive child at the start of Year 7 is very bad practice by the school?

461 replies

pippalonglegs · 01/11/2013 13:21

Oh, I need help and advice please. I'm hurting so much for my DS that I can't think about anything else. Please bear with me - it's a story.

Basically, in a drama class the children were split into boys v girls. The boys started giggling and got themselves into a position in which they became helplessly unable to stop laughing. DS commented to his buddy that it was 'as if they were all on drugs'. Teacher (probably stressed) overheard, took exception to the comment and issued a detention. DS came home seeming so sad and withdrawn and was very upset. He told me about the detention and subsequently I emailed the school (Monday), taking great care not to take sides, simply in order to understand what had happened from teacher's point of view. On Tuesday she called me, and left a voicemail in which she said that DS had 'shouted out a completely inappropriate comment'.

I had no contact telephone number so emailed again (Tues) and explained that even prior to this, DS had been struggling with high school transition and was feeling sad to the point of really not wanting to go to school, and might perhaps benefit more from an alternative approach. I asked if we might talk about the detention before it went ahead. She didn't reply on the Tuesday, the Wednesday or the Thursday - in other words, she completely ignored/dismissed my concerns - and instead simply sent him home with a detention slip for the Friday. Of course I was furious, not least because my sensible and genuine concerns had been completely ignored, and I felt I'd been treated as a stupid, interfering parent.

But then the full picture emerged. I happened to be speaking to another parent who told me she had been very shocked to hear what had happened to DS, although initially I didn't fully understand what she meant. Her child gave an account (unprompted by me, I should add) that was identical to DS's. She said that nobody had even heard his comment (which in my opinion merely illustrated a mature understanding of the potential impact of drugs anyway) and that it was only the teacher flying off the handle that caused any interest in it. But - and this is the significant bit - it also transpired from this third party account that DS had been made to stand facing the wall until the end of lesson, and was at that point given the detention. And that was the bit that crushed me. DS is the most gentle, kind and sensitive of boys, has never been in trouble before, and there could have been no need to subject him to that kind of humiliation in front of his peers. Detentions and discipline, yes - but peer humiliation, most definitely no!!!

Suddenly it all made sense. No wonder he had come home from school so upset. And the thing that really distressed me was that he had felt so much shame and humiliation that he hadn't even been able to tell me about it. My heart broke for him. Little wonder that he was unwilling to go back into school to face his peers. Personally, I felt that such a punishment merely lacked a cap with a big 'D' on the front - a punishment more suited to 1913 than 2013.

I set about researching the pathogenic effects and the damage of peer humiliation (which has a profound impact on cognitive development and behaviour in children). Armed with the evidence, I emailed the head teacher with a formal grievance (the substantive points of which were 1. the failure of the teacher to engage with me and 2. the humiliation punishment that was used). That was acknowledged by the head, who said he would appoint his deputy (also the head of pastoral care) to investiagte, and would then meet with me to discuss the matter.

The deputy called me yesterday and Oh. My. God!!!! It has been a long, long time since I've spoken to anybody who was so bloody-minded and unintelligent. In spite of promises by the head, he refused to have a meeting with me, although I asked repeatedly if we could sit down to talk about my complaint. Every time I asked, his parrotted reply was that he 'would not normally meet with a parent to discuss a detention'. It didn't matter how many times I repeated that the detention was the least of my concerns, he wouldn't listen. In the end I even said that I felt like Jeremy Paxman and I said I wanted a straight answer to a straight question - but his reply was the same again!!!

In the end, I said I would redial and speak to the head, which I duly did. Of course, in the intervening minutes, the deputy had skidded down the corridor to forewarn the head and the head was, initially at least, every bit as hostile. We spoke for about ten minutes, most of which was decidedly heated, and I have to say, most (though by no means all) of the anger came from him not me! Clearly, he was unused to being challenged by a parent and he didn't like it at all. I felt his attitude was autocratic, verging on imperialistic - and told him so!! He actually told me that DS wasn't made to stand facing the wall, he was made to stand at the edge of the room, looking away from the class group!! Oh dear. Talk about semantics!!! Paradoxically, his refusal to accept that DS had been made to stand facing the wall seems clearly to indicate that he knew how unacceptable that would have been. I said that kind of ducking and diving, that kind of manipulation was fundamentally dishonest and slippery and wouldn't play out at all well in the press.

At about that point, we had a u-turn and he invited me in to see him on Monday for a cup of tea and a biscuit.

Basically, it would help me to know if anybody else has had a similar experience. I have the meeting next Monday and would really like to know what options I have/don't have. DS is really suffering and has lost a lot of confidence and self-esteem since this incident. I think it's something that he will carry around with him for the rest of his life.

OP posts:
claig · 01/11/2013 22:17

"If my child knows I have a pov yet I feel unable to make that pov to the school because they will not listen,my authority is reduced in the eyes of my child."

When it comes to schools, the school's authority is more important than the parent's and the child has to learn and respect that. Parents undermine that by questioning everything that teachers do that parents may disagree with and they pass on that disrespect of the school and teachers to their children by doing so.

We have to turn the clock back, go back to rigour, when parents respected teachers more, so that pupils also respect schools and teachers more.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 22:20

I will never hand over authority over my child to someone else and then back up their authority regardless cardibach!

You're right,I think we have a fundamental difference of opinion!

Good night though Smile

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 22:27

The schools authority is not more important than mine claig.

We have to turn the clock back,go back to rigour,when parents respected teachers more,so that pupils also respect schools and teachers more.

Yeah.Right.
I was kind of taking your opinion on board but that's just laughable.

Patchouli · 01/11/2013 22:27

I was with the OP until the "merely illustrated a mature understanding of the potential impact of drugs" bit made me realise you might be a leetle bit overeacting.

lovetheprintedword · 01/11/2013 22:27

What really jumped out at me was this sentence that you said, regarding his comment about drugs:

which in my opinion merely illustrated a mature understanding of the potential impact of drugs anyway

You think his comment was actually mature and intelligent? You obviously love your son very much, but your view of him is tainted by this rosy view. Your quiet, sensitive boy was being a pain in class and called out a comment that was not mature or clever, it was just offensive and silly.

It's hard to accept that your babies are becoming a bit unpleasant at times when they enter their teenage years, but you're going to have to find a way to step back a bit, because this reaction is way, way out of proportion.

ilovesooty · 01/11/2013 22:32

Since some parents see fit to query minor sanctions I would still maintain that teachers educating hundreds of children every week have more important things to do than engage with every minor issue. This one appears pretty small within a whole school discipline context. I agree with claig

claig · 01/11/2013 22:33

'The schools authority is not more important than mine claig.'

It is and that is where we are going wrong as a society when we undermine that.

Just because someone such as Wayne or Waynetta disagree with a school, its head or its teachers does not mean that their authority trumps that of the school's where their children are concerned. When a child is in school, the child is in an institution and the rules of that institution come first and above what the parents may prefer.

bababababoom · 01/11/2013 22:34

Thanks everyone, I Home Educate and was considering sending my child to school - you've convinced me not to, so cheers :-)

OP - if this thread were a wind-up, and I don't think it is, I'm exactly the sort of parent you're taking the mickey out of.

Salmotrutta - you mean really bad stuff like children being humiliated and bullied? Children's self esteem is serious to me. But I've encountered my share of "really bad stuff" thanks, and dealt with it as anyone would. Not ashamed of feeling empathy for an eleven year old humiliated and made miserable.

ilovesooty - oh yes, very serious, and proud of it.

bababababoom · 01/11/2013 22:35

When a child is in school, the child is in an institution and the rules of that institution come first and above what the parents may prefer.

best argument for Home Ed I've ever heard, that one!

morethanpotatoprints · 01/11/2013 22:39

Claig

Maybe if more teachers earned respect, then parents would support them more.

However, I agree with you that parents who outsource their children's education do so with the knowledge they are entering a system where their dc are institutionalised with policies, procedures, rules, regulations, expectancies.

I suppose if as a parent you aren't prepared to do this, as we were no longer willing to do, you deregister and H.ed

morethanpotatoprints · 01/11/2013 22:39

Oh, missed previous post Grin

claig · 01/11/2013 22:40

Teaching is not customer service. Teachers shouldn't have to be accountable to every customer or parent and have to explain and justify the decisions they make when carrying out their professional duties.

It must be soul destroying for teachers to feel that they have so little authority and support that they have to act as customer service reps and smile while being upbraided by Wayne or Waynetta about their child's behaviour.

In the old days, very few parents marched down to the school to have a go at teachers or a head. They respected their authority. Now that has been undermined and we see the consequences in the deteriorating levels of discipline.

Strumpetron · 01/11/2013 22:41

Parents really need to back teachers up more IMO, like the united front mothers and fathers have.

Salmotrutta · 01/11/2013 22:43

bababoom - if you read my other post you will see that I was made to stand facing a wall in primary school. I was about 9/10 I think.

I didn't find it humiliating. I wasn't scarred for life. I didn't feel bullied.

I thought, actually, it was a silly punishment. Silly. Not humiliating.

(I must point out that I have never used that punishment for my pupils though)

Really bad stuff is not making a child face a wall.

Really bad stuff is getting shot in the head for attending school.

Or being forced to be a child soldier.

Or being made to work in a sweat shop.

claig · 01/11/2013 22:46

'I suppose if as a parent you aren't prepared to do this, as we were no longer willing to do, you deregister and H.ed'

Yes. I am a Conservative and am therefore in favour of parents being able to home educate unlike some on the left who wish children to be in state institutions.

But, most parents are not able to provide as good an education as that available in good schools with good teachers, qualified in their fields. Most parents don't have the knowledge or time. I learned Latin at school and my mum was not able to help me with it.

I agree with you, that if you do go to a school then you must abide by its rules and respect its teachers and not be able to question every thing they do.

harticus · 01/11/2013 22:49

In the old days, very few parents marched down to the school to have a go at teachers or a head

What nonsense you are spouting Claig - in 1923 my great uncle marched down the school and punched a teacher who had whipped my 6 year old grandmother.

You really are talking out of your arse. A common affliction among most Daily Mail readers.

ravenAnyKucker · 01/11/2013 22:50

I teach a lad with a similar mum.

He's coming along nicely, after a few sharp exchanges between mum &, well, every staff member he's ever come into contact with.

His planner absolutely does not get photocopied on a weekly basis to pass mum's ranting around the staffroom. Nor is there in any way a sweepstake to see who can get mum to ring the HT most in a given half term.

I took him on a residential trip last year. I had to argue quite hard that it wasn't the kid's fault that his mother has failed to deal with the transition to secondary - most of my colleagues were all for putting him on the 'place denied on H&S grounds' list.

claig · 01/11/2013 22:52

harticus, I said most parents, and if they assaulted a teacher they would probably have ended up in jail.

harticus · 01/11/2013 22:57

Look up claig - see that whistling above your head? It is "the point".

claig · 01/11/2013 23:00

I've looked, nothing whistling above my head, are you smoking a joint?

morethanpotatoprints · 01/11/2013 23:00

Claig

I do think teachers should be accountable and I think they should apologise to parents when they get it wrong.
Nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes. Some teachers are totally unfair and they need to be accountable to parents.
The old days you talk about were full of fear and distress for many children, including myself. I have had therapy for the awful mental and physical abuse I sustained from teachers, who were well respected.
I certainly wouldn't want another generation to go through what many adults of today did.

onthecountofthree · 01/11/2013 23:03

I wouldn't say I was traumatised but I am now 41 and this happened to me when I was just 10 - I had been on an early lunch sitting so I could take part in a lunch club activity and I was apparently rude to a dinner lady so I was taken out of the activity and made to stand outside the Head's office facing the wall in front of the rest of the kids eating their lunch on the 2nd sitting. At the time I saw it for what it was - an unjust punishment but it has stayed with me - mainly because it wasn't the first or the last humiliating punishment the school would heap on me or a friend - it's school and kids will be humiliated by friends and teachers - the punishments won't always fit the "crime" - I think a little chat with your son about how you feel his punishment was unfair but these things happen and he needs to be careful what he says in future - even if in jest - then consider whether he should move schools or not.

The only reason I suggest that is because you now know what it is like to have an issue with this school - if you don't feel you are listened to as a parent now then you probably won't be in the future. If however he is happy there and has made some good friends then perhaps all he can do is try and avoid this sort of thing again. Not all schools are like this.

claig · 01/11/2013 23:04

These are the sort of scumbags that we now see more of than in the old days, the days of rigour and respect

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1381809/Head-teachers-seige-One-10-assaulted-PARENT.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-130670/Mother-jailed-punching-pregnant-teacher.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2193329/Britains-bravest-teacher-Despite-vicious-assaults-pupil-AND-parent-headmaster-refuses-children-hes-devoted-to.html

But the Mail reports it, unlike some of the more highbrow papers, and that means that the politicians are under pressure to do something about it.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 23:05

claig I see you feel the need to resort to insulting remarks.

In what old days?

How far are you suggesting we go back?

Is that particularly progressive or desirable do you think?

Should we go back to corporal punishment?

claig · 01/11/2013 23:09

morethanpotatoprints, yes I am not talking about Victorian days when I say old days. I mean the 50s-70s, when there was more respect for teachers and schools than there is nowadays, just as there was more respect for the police and bank managers etc

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