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AIBU?

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To think that using peer humiliation as a punishment for a quiet, sensitive child at the start of Year 7 is very bad practice by the school?

461 replies

pippalonglegs · 01/11/2013 13:21

Oh, I need help and advice please. I'm hurting so much for my DS that I can't think about anything else. Please bear with me - it's a story.

Basically, in a drama class the children were split into boys v girls. The boys started giggling and got themselves into a position in which they became helplessly unable to stop laughing. DS commented to his buddy that it was 'as if they were all on drugs'. Teacher (probably stressed) overheard, took exception to the comment and issued a detention. DS came home seeming so sad and withdrawn and was very upset. He told me about the detention and subsequently I emailed the school (Monday), taking great care not to take sides, simply in order to understand what had happened from teacher's point of view. On Tuesday she called me, and left a voicemail in which she said that DS had 'shouted out a completely inappropriate comment'.

I had no contact telephone number so emailed again (Tues) and explained that even prior to this, DS had been struggling with high school transition and was feeling sad to the point of really not wanting to go to school, and might perhaps benefit more from an alternative approach. I asked if we might talk about the detention before it went ahead. She didn't reply on the Tuesday, the Wednesday or the Thursday - in other words, she completely ignored/dismissed my concerns - and instead simply sent him home with a detention slip for the Friday. Of course I was furious, not least because my sensible and genuine concerns had been completely ignored, and I felt I'd been treated as a stupid, interfering parent.

But then the full picture emerged. I happened to be speaking to another parent who told me she had been very shocked to hear what had happened to DS, although initially I didn't fully understand what she meant. Her child gave an account (unprompted by me, I should add) that was identical to DS's. She said that nobody had even heard his comment (which in my opinion merely illustrated a mature understanding of the potential impact of drugs anyway) and that it was only the teacher flying off the handle that caused any interest in it. But - and this is the significant bit - it also transpired from this third party account that DS had been made to stand facing the wall until the end of lesson, and was at that point given the detention. And that was the bit that crushed me. DS is the most gentle, kind and sensitive of boys, has never been in trouble before, and there could have been no need to subject him to that kind of humiliation in front of his peers. Detentions and discipline, yes - but peer humiliation, most definitely no!!!

Suddenly it all made sense. No wonder he had come home from school so upset. And the thing that really distressed me was that he had felt so much shame and humiliation that he hadn't even been able to tell me about it. My heart broke for him. Little wonder that he was unwilling to go back into school to face his peers. Personally, I felt that such a punishment merely lacked a cap with a big 'D' on the front - a punishment more suited to 1913 than 2013.

I set about researching the pathogenic effects and the damage of peer humiliation (which has a profound impact on cognitive development and behaviour in children). Armed with the evidence, I emailed the head teacher with a formal grievance (the substantive points of which were 1. the failure of the teacher to engage with me and 2. the humiliation punishment that was used). That was acknowledged by the head, who said he would appoint his deputy (also the head of pastoral care) to investiagte, and would then meet with me to discuss the matter.

The deputy called me yesterday and Oh. My. God!!!! It has been a long, long time since I've spoken to anybody who was so bloody-minded and unintelligent. In spite of promises by the head, he refused to have a meeting with me, although I asked repeatedly if we could sit down to talk about my complaint. Every time I asked, his parrotted reply was that he 'would not normally meet with a parent to discuss a detention'. It didn't matter how many times I repeated that the detention was the least of my concerns, he wouldn't listen. In the end I even said that I felt like Jeremy Paxman and I said I wanted a straight answer to a straight question - but his reply was the same again!!!

In the end, I said I would redial and speak to the head, which I duly did. Of course, in the intervening minutes, the deputy had skidded down the corridor to forewarn the head and the head was, initially at least, every bit as hostile. We spoke for about ten minutes, most of which was decidedly heated, and I have to say, most (though by no means all) of the anger came from him not me! Clearly, he was unused to being challenged by a parent and he didn't like it at all. I felt his attitude was autocratic, verging on imperialistic - and told him so!! He actually told me that DS wasn't made to stand facing the wall, he was made to stand at the edge of the room, looking away from the class group!! Oh dear. Talk about semantics!!! Paradoxically, his refusal to accept that DS had been made to stand facing the wall seems clearly to indicate that he knew how unacceptable that would have been. I said that kind of ducking and diving, that kind of manipulation was fundamentally dishonest and slippery and wouldn't play out at all well in the press.

At about that point, we had a u-turn and he invited me in to see him on Monday for a cup of tea and a biscuit.

Basically, it would help me to know if anybody else has had a similar experience. I have the meeting next Monday and would really like to know what options I have/don't have. DS is really suffering and has lost a lot of confidence and self-esteem since this incident. I think it's something that he will carry around with him for the rest of his life.

OP posts:
Salmotrutta · 01/11/2013 21:30

Never mind ilovesooty - what do we care anyway?

We're just dickheads who have control of children's lives, right? Hmm

candycoatedwaterdrops · 01/11/2013 21:31

What is wrong with MN atm? Where is HQ? They said they wouldn't let this sort of crap continue...........

claig · 01/11/2013 21:31

MrsTerryPratchett, you are right.

But what you and I think doesn't really count. The zeitgeist has changed and it is what the large political groups and movements think that determines policy. Newspapers, campaigning groups, charities, politicians. left vs right etc, they affect the zeitgeist. We are just like newspaper readers who comment in the comments section but can't change much.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 21:35

Jeepers.

Count me out on this now.

I have no idea what your last post meant claig. Grin

I obviously spent too much time arseing about and giggling at school to learn what zeitgeist means Wink

cardibach · 01/11/2013 21:36

VerySmallSqueak Just as the teachers do not wish to be undermined,I do not wish to be undermined as a parent.
But teachers aren't undermining you as a parent - they don't ring up your house and tell you not to send your child to bed early Hmm You undermine them when you prevent your child doing the punishment they deem appropriate. And while I know teachers aren't infallible (I'm one) I also know that they don't (on the whole) set out to offend you and if they are out of order management will sort it soon enough. Honest. I can't even take a lesson register 5 mins late without getting an email, never mind routinely humiliate pupils!

claig · 01/11/2013 21:39

'I have taught children,and I am quite happy with being accountable to the parents.I don't see it as a biggie.'

VerySmallSqueak, it has gone much too far and teachers are now being undermined and weighed down by this crap and having to justify what they do to parents too often etc. The teacher had already replied once but that was not enough

"I asked if we might talk about the detention before it went ahead. She didn't reply on the Tuesday, the Wednesday or the Thursday - in other words, she completely ignored/dismissed my concerns"

The end result of this type of philosophy is eventually what gloucestergirl said

"I am teaching at a school at the moment (planning on leaving) because the management engage too much with every little sodding whinge from kids and their parents."

This is what is happening. Teachers are not being given the respect they deserve as professionals and the constant monitoring of teachers etc is part of the same sort of latent mistrust and undermining of responsibility and it will eventually harm the profession and lead to unskilled people doing the job instead of qualified, trained and motivated teachers.

ilovesooty · 01/11/2013 21:45

I am teaching at a school at the moment (planning on leaving) because the management engage too much with every little sodding whinge from kids and their parents

I don't blame you. It's one of the reasons I left.

I remember a boy being excluded at my last school. The next morning I was teaching his class and he returned with his mother. One of his classmates observed: "His mum will threaten to go to the papers and the Head will roll over. He'll be back by break". She was right.

TamzinGrey · 01/11/2013 21:46

I was once sent out to stand facing the wall in the corridor for hysterical giggling in class. Didn't do me any lasting harm. In fact, I'd forgotten all about it until I read this thread.

claig · 01/11/2013 21:50

yes, that is pathetic and is what we have come to due to the previling political ethos and zeigeist.

I think Gove said he was going to try and back teachers and give them back more authority. but I fear the tide is so strong from the progressive zeitgeist and the "rights" instead of "responsibilities" zeitgeist that nothing much can really be done to turn it around yet.

It is like a pendulum and it has gone too far to the left. It will eventually swing back to the right, but it may take years before the mood and ethos changes enough for that to happen.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 21:54

claig the teacher replied and from what we have been told the parent was told the teachers POV. The op was not there to take the call - it was voicemail-so she did not have the opportunity to discuss her POV.

Why shouldn't the teachers justify what they do to parents if the parent has an issue that causes them to contact the school?.What is it about teachers judgement that trumps that of parents in all situations?

I am not anti-teacher.My DC's have great teachers doing a brilliant job. I don't think that a parent on a particular occasion asking for some explanation of a certain sanction against their child would cause a problem to the many excellent teachers in my DC's school.

cardibach I believe it does undermine parents if they have cause to disagree with a course of action against their child and their views are completely disallowed.

Caffe1neAddict · 01/11/2013 21:54

Have you considered teaching drama?
Yes your son might feel he was treated unfairly (actually, no, he hasn't said this, you have...). The bottom line is your son shouted out something inappropriate in class and actually insulting to his peers. Teachers are human and don't always see the whole picture. I agree with other posts- your son needs to learn from this and get resilience skills. Instead you've taught him that he needs to do nothing as you'll do it for him, and that it's ok to blame everyone else (you blame the drama teacher, deputy head and headmaster). Get a grip, it's a detention not a caning.

claig · 01/11/2013 21:55

And they say they want to bring ex-soldiers into schools to instil discipline, but how on earth will they be able to do so when teachers are undermined so often and aren'tallowed to get on with it and make their own decisions and where they do not get enough support if they try to.

claig · 01/11/2013 21:59

'claig the teacher replied and from what we have been told the parent was told the teachers POV. The op was not there to take the call - it was voicemail-so she did not have the opportunity to discuss her POV.'

Yes you are right.

'Why shouldn't the teachers justify what they do to parents if the parent has an issue that causes them to contact the school?.What is it about teachers judgement that trumps that of parents in all situations?'

Because the teacher teaches lots of kids and shouldn't be at the beck and call of every parent. It's a bit like people who call 999 to say they can't open a wine bottle etc. Teachers can't reply to every tiny issue and parents shouldn't expect them to. Teachers are professionals and are accountable to school management not to every parent.

ilovesooty · 01/11/2013 21:59

I don't think that a parent on a particular occasion asking for some explanation of a certain sanction against their child would cause a problem to the many excellent teachers in my DC's school

It's a pretty minor sanction. I would have thought most secondary teachers, teaching hundreds of pupils every week, would have too much to do to discuss individual minor issues. And any sensible Head would back his teachers to deal with minor incidents and the resulting sanctions.

cardibach · 01/11/2013 22:00

No, VerySmallSqueak, that is not undermining, that is disagreeing. You undermine someone if you reduce their authority and lessen their effectiveness. Questioning a teacher unnecessarily and getting the punishment they have awarded removed is undermining. Telling a parent who is trying to change a punishment that you disagree is not. Your authority at home will not be affected.
DO you actually want your child's teachers to be ineffective? Because that is the end result of constant undermining. I have seen it happening. It is much, much harder to maintain discipline now than it was when I started teaching 23 years ago - not because today's kids are worse but because you have to constantly second guess parents' views.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 22:01

I think this is being turned into a huge deal by some of you.

The op wanted to discuss her child and his punishment.

It's not that bloody difficult surely?

At our school we are encouraged to talk to the teacher if we have any concerns and they always do their best to make an opportunity to listen.

It's very basic - a two way discussion if there are particular concerns from either side.

And if not it's business as usual.

And since I still don't know what a zeitgeist is and have no idea of the politics of this I cannot be involved in that side,only the human side.

cardibach · 01/11/2013 22:04

As others have pointed out, though, secondary teachers teach hundreds of pupils per week and it is not possible to get in a big dialogue about every little sanction. THe teacher did respond and would not have time to keep doing it. I teach 12 classes of, on average, 25 pupils each, so about 300 pupils. I have words with several of them each week. If I had to discuss all of these with parents I would get no marking or planning done. Is that what you want?

claig · 01/11/2013 22:06

'And since I still don't know what a zeitgeist is and have no idea of the politics of this I cannot be involved in that side,only the human side.'

Read the Daily Mail, those are th3 type of political and cultural issues that they always discuss and they argue against th3 undermining of teacher authority because of where it will eventually lead. The way we live, our whole society is based on political decisions and policies.

The parent choice, the targets, the accountability, the monitoring of teachers, the rights of pupils have all gone too far and teachers and institutions are being undermined and in the end it will harm society.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 22:06

In that case it is undermining cardibach.

If my child knows I have a pov yet I feel unable to make that pov to the school because they will not listen,my authority is reduced in the eyes of my child.

It's a two way street. My child can then run rings round me because I can't voice my POV.I am ineffective in my childs mind at asserting myself.

To claig and ilove this is not a minor or tiny issue to the parent.

In your view it may be.
In their view it's not.

LightasaBreeze · 01/11/2013 22:07

Isn't it half term this week, obviously not at OPs school.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 22:07

As long as I have a hole in my arse I will not read The daily Mail claig.

Soz.

Want2bSupermum · 01/11/2013 22:08

morethanpotatoprints In the real world we have to deal with people who are put in a position of power. They might always be wrong but they are right because they are in the position of power (ie they are your boss).

The teachers of your child are their first boss. Would you go into your managers office and have a giggle fit? No, I didn't think so. Teachers deserve more respect. They can't be perfect all the time and I think the punishment was acceptable. I would be adding my own punishment by making him write a letter to the teacher to apologise for his poor choice of behaviour.

cardibach · 01/11/2013 22:10

But Very that isn't the case! I'm sorry but I can't agree. As a parent, you have authority over your child when you are in control. You won't lose authority then by handing it over to someone else and them upholding that authority. You chose the school, and can change it if it is really unsuitable. Your authority is not being challenged or undermined if the school disagree with you. I can't agree that it is. I doubt we will reach agreement on this though, and I'm going to bed now.

claig · 01/11/2013 22:12

'To claig and ilove this is not a minor or tiny issue to the parent.'

But that is irrelevant. Just because a parent is concerned doesn't make the parent right. You can't expect teachers to jump at every concern of parents, just as you can't expect the emergency services respond to someone who calls them because there is a spider in the bath. What someone believes to be important may not be important.

VerySmallSqueak · 01/11/2013 22:13

cardibach you know I'm not suggesting you discuss every little sanction with the parents.

Just the ones the parents are concerned enough to question.

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