to wonder if being nice is really worth it?

[Doodlecockaquack]

I am nice. I just am. I try to be considerate to everybody and their feelings, probably give the benefit of the doubt far too often, can't not help someone if I can and admire people who are kind and giving over those who are selfish. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, in fact I've never had a lot of confidence, and am acutely aware and harshly judgemental of my own faults and failings. I know I am over sensitive. I've even rewritten this paragraph several times because I'm worried about sounding smug/using 'I' too much/being too boring etc etc

Anyway, my question is this: Are 'nice' people ever happier than not so nice, mean and/or selfish people who have more regard for their own feelings that those of others? Are things which I regard as 'selfish' or 'not kind' - e.g. making hurtful jokes at someone else's expense, willfully ignoring the needs of elderly/vulnerable relatives, little comments intended to belittle someone, pushing ahead of old ladies at bus stops (to name a few recent examples) - really that bad? It's starting to seem to me that people who are selfish/graby/mean to others etc, really do just get away with it and that you get no credit for being 'nice'.

A few examples recently have really shaken my confidence, and I'd really like to know what I'm doing wrong because frankly, I feel mortified and a bit of a mug...

• We recently got new neighbours, a young couple. Being a bit shy and not wanted to be intrusive, I wasn't straight outside grilling them. But, eventually, I quietly left the house to go for a walk as I always do with my DD and encountered and said hello to the mother of the girl moving in. She quickly told me who she was, and called her daughter over to say hello. Less than 5 mins of small talk ensued, during which she told me they were planning some work to the house which we have already had done. She said they had peered over the fence already to have a look (fine) and I said that if they wanted to come in and have a look they were welcome. A few days later, as I was in the front garden, the guy comes home. Similar hellos, about 3 minutes, no mention of the work, just general moving chat. Next day, clear as a bell because we both had our windows open, I hear the girl telling someone about me, saying I had held them both up for ages and joked about the sad local curtain twitchers. Not intended for me to hear I know, but hurtful.

• In a queue for the checkout, chatting away to my DD (2yo) whilst holding her on my hip (out of choice, because she loves to see the till) but with a trolly full, I notice a woman with only 2 items behind me. I smile and ask if she'd like to go in front. She does a funny chuckle and asks if I'm sure. 'Of course'. She hesitates, then says no, it looks like I've got my hands full. I reply I'm fine, I'm about to put DD down, I don't mind. She says 'now you're just trying to make me feel bad, I'll wait here'. I smile and repeat I don't mind, but it's up to her, but don't press it and turn my attention back to my DD. She's joined by her DH in the queue who immediately remarks on the time it's going to take to get through. They continue to huff and puff about how there aren't any basket only checkouts open, then talk about an appt they have to get to. I'm just about to be served at this point, so turn around and say one more time 'if you're in a rush, skip ahead, it's fine'. She replies 'make your mind up love. I'll stay here now and hope I make it... just get a move on yeah?'. They glare at me the whole time I'm packing my shopping (as quick as poss). Why be so rude? And why throw my good intentions back in my face?

• A friend of mine has recently had DC2, 12 weeks early, as I found out via facebook. We are not close friends, but met when our DD's were newborns (2years ago), and meet 1-2 times a month. I added my good wishes to the dozens already on her facebook, but I also sent her a private message, 3 lines long, putting myself at her service if they needed any help with their DD1 or a dog walker while the baby was in intensive care. Several other people (I don't know who they are), publically also offered support. Lovely, I thought, and a general message of thanks came from the new parents, along with periodic positive updates about the baby which were 'liked' by 50+ people, including myself... But a few days later, I got a reply to my message saying thanks for my offer but it wasn't my place to be 'muscling in' and that I needed to 'back off', of course they wouldn't let me look after their DD and that my interest in their lives was hardly appropriate- signed from friend and her DH. I was, and am, mortified, and just a bit godsmacked. I stress, I do not blame them in the slightest for reacting however the hell they feel like because I can't imagine the stress and worry they are feeling. I don't hold it against them, nor will I mention it if my friend ever speaks to me again. I'm just so upset to have caused them extra upset and mortified that I have done the wrong thing but I was only trying to be nice. Isn't that what people do in these situations?

In the last few months these things, but especially the last one, have really shaken me. I know it sounds indulgent and dramatic, but I feel so inadequate. I don't want credit for caring about others, but why does it so often turn into a negative trait? I'm not pushy, in fact, I'm shy and introverted. Would I be better off not giving so much of a shit, since my natural inclination to 'be nice' seems to backfire so often?

Obviously, I apologise for the length and wafflyness (is that a word!?) of this, it is another failing of mine I hope it makes sense to someone. Please don't flame me!

When things like this happen I am just thankful that I lead a content and happy life that makes me glad to be nice/do nice things. I generally try to give people benefit of the doubt and think well they must not be happy in their lives

The FB message was sent by the husband, I suspect.

It's them, not you, OP.

bestofburden

I agree. The toddler time (2 in my case) was the time I was most unhappy. A bit aimless really.

I agree with the poster that said that it is possible to be nice and tough/assertive, and I consider myself to be like that, although I did used to be more of a 'nice' person who felt unappreciated and walked over. I wonder if perhaps it is coming across to others that your self esteem is a bit low, and therefore you come across as a bit desperate (not saying you are at all btw, just saying it may be how you appear to others). Sometimes, however nice you are, you need to have/display boundaries to other people.

OP, the people in your situations sound absolutely awful, but I think you need to see it as their problem and that they are arseholes, rather than internalising it and making it into your problem. In the issue with your neighbours, I'd just be polite but cool with them in future. Just a quick 'hello' and never any conversation, even if they try to strike up a conversation with you. With the woman in the supermarket, I'd have just said 'ok' after her initial 'no' and left her to it. She doesn't sound a very nice person. And I would delete your 'friend' and her husband from FB and block them, regardless of what they are going through, as they sound totally ungrateful and downright rude and nasty.

As I said, I used to be a 'nice' person and did get walked over a lot. These days I still consider myself nice but I do put myself first these days, and I do expect to be treated nicely by people. I do still do favours and help people out, but generally this is only for close friends now, and I do it because I know they will appreciate it and would do the same for me. I don't expect anything in return btw, it's just enough for me to know that they would do it for me if I needed too, if that makes sense.

I tend to take people as I find them, however if someone proves that they aren't a nice person and are going to be horrible/rude/take the piss then I immediately distance myself from them. I was going on girls' nights out with a friend and some of her other friends, but one of her friends kept making digs and unkind comments to me so I immediately stopped going on the nights out. I find that these days I just won't tolerate any behaviour like that. I am pleasant and polite and always treat people as I'd like to be treated myself, and if someone isn't nice in return then I just cut them off if possible.

I also used to offer my 'services' too readily to people, and these days I am choosy about what I will and won't do. An old schoolfriend of mine is always asking on FB for lifts to town, lifts to the gym, and all kinds of other favours. A few years ago I'd have done any favour for her, regardless of whether it put me out or not, but I did her a favour about a year ago and she was totally ungrateful and ungracious about the whole thing, so I made a mental note not to help her out again. I think people treat you better overall and are more respectful towards you if they sense that you have boundaries and if they get the impression that you won't do absolutely anything for any Tom, Dick or Harry.

My advice would be to put yourself first more, OP, and also say 'no' to people. Do favours only if they are for someone you are close to, who values you. Don't do things where you will be put out enormously. And make your boundaries clear. :)

I apologise in advance if this comes across slightly harshly but this is purely my take on it and not meant to be mean in any way, just an attempt to give you some insight.

From what you say about yourself I think I've known a few people like you - people with low self esteem who are perhaps a bit overly keen to offer help and "kindness." The thing about the "kindness" you're offering is that you expect it to be rewarded in some way - either by reciprocal kindness or by friendship or some other payback. I've been on the receiving end of that sort of kindness a few times. I've had people I barely know offer inappropriate help - looking after my children for example - and it's clear that in return they expect our "friendship" (which hardly exists) to deepen. That is not how it works. There is a very intricate social "game" when it comes to favours and offers of help and you seem not to have learned it. You say you struggle generally with social situations so perhaps you are picking up cues wrong/reading situations incorrectly?

Being around people who need validation and who offer help etc in order to gain some sort of return can be very draining. People who seem less "nice" tend to attract people because they are not hard work - they are sure of who they are and don't need gratitude or reciprocal favours.

You should only ever offer a favour when you have no expectation of return/praise/gratitude. That way if you do get any of those it's a huge bonus, if you don't get them then no skin off your nose you didn't expect it anyway. If you are expecting them, ask yourself why, and ask yourself if it is appropriate. People don't gain friendship through offering favours and help, they gain it by meeting each others' minds, building up a relationship based on who they really are (not who they think others want them to be) and after that has been established, then they do kind things for each other without expectation of reward, simply because they genuinely care.

The response your friend gave you to your offer of help was overly harsh, but I'm guessing that in their darkest hour they saw you misinterpreting the level of friendship that exists between you, making an inappropriate offer of help and mixed with all the other emotions they're going through they reacted far too harshly. You did do something wrong, yes, you overstepped a boundary that you don't seem to be aware of, but they responded far too harshly.

Offering kindness is not as straightforward as it seems. You are making yourself vulnerable in front of someone by putting your feelings on the line, you are also assuming a certain level of closeness. That make the person you've offered somewhat responsible for your feelings. If the person doesn't want to be responsible they can react harshly. Does that make sense?

I wouldn't take the neighbours comments personally, she's probably from an area where people don't talk to each other and took your friendliness up the wrong way. They may have felt uncomfortable or invaded, that says more about them then you, don't bother with them in the future.

The couple in the supermarket were horrible, your mistake was to keep asking in an overly nice manner but there was no excuse for them.

Your 'friend' sounds like a lunatic and tbh most people would be infuriated with such a nasty reaction to a kind offer, yet you're too busy making excuses for her and 'understanding' the stress they're under. Some people are just obnoxious bullies and when they see a nice person who doesn't have the confidence to stand up to them, they bully. You're that person that gets shit upon, they pour their bile on you because they feel they can. Stop making excuses for the vile bastards, tell them how vile they are and delete them permanently from your life.

Being nice is fine but you should only do it to genuinely help someone, not to make people like you. Your problem is that you care too much about other people, their feelings, making them think you're nice....

I think you need to start putting yourself first, put your own feelings first, cut anyone who bullies/walks all over you out of your life, practice assertiveness and self love. Your daughter is going to learn how to allow others to treat her by following your example so treat yourself as you would like your daughter to treat herself and have high expectations of others treatment of you. Be good and kind to yourself.

Don't waste your niceness on anyone who doesn't appreciate it, balance it out with a healthy amount of cuntiness

Cailin

I don't think (obviously I'm not the OP!) that that sounds harsh.

"Being around people who need validation and who offer help etc in order to gain some sort of return can be very draining"

I know someone like this. Her extreme helpfulness makes me feel uncomfortable . I know, in her case, that she has had very little validation in her life from parents, and it's as if there's a hole that she's trying to fill - in effect helping others to help herself.

I don't know about that CailinDana. There is a bit of point in what you say, and it may apply to some people in some situations, but I think you have extrapolated it way beyond relevance to the OP's situation, and yes it does seem a bit mean!

I think it is perfectly normal to briefly chat to a new neighbour, don't you? And what could the OP hope to gain from the couple in the supermarket, as she would likely never see them again?

Out of interest OP do you do that thing where someone asks you "Where would you like to go for lunch?" and you say "Oh I don't mind, you choose"?
Because I find that absolutely INFURIATING. I know people who do this think they're being "nice" but what they're really doing is saying "I'm not going to tell you what I think/want, you have to guess." You are basically putting that person in a position of power over you, a position most people don't want.

Say what you need and you will get it.

The very first time the OP met her neighbours Nadia, she invited them into her house. She doesn't know them, they don't know her, but she wants them to come in and see work she has had done. Most people would find that a bit weird and over-friendly. They were nasty about it, which means they're not people she actually wants to know, but she had already invited these nasty people to her house - do you see what I mean?

Its interesting that you wrote the title AIBU to wonder if being nice is really worth it
Im wondering whether you are aware that being "nice" all the time can sometimes be because you are needing the validation /boost to your self esteem
You seem to want recognititon for your "niceness" when the truly kind people I know do it without needing any payback for them.

The problem with being too nice is that it can make you seem needy and it comes across as insincere.

I hope that isn't harsh - I do think the FB couple response is odd though.

xposts !

God that's a bit garbled sorry. What I mean is, it is the norm to "read" people for a while first before inviting them to your house, so you know first that you actually want that level of friendship. The OP didn't do that, she contravened a social norm which can come across as weird. The OP didn't intend to do that and thought she was being nice but her behaviour was interpreted as "curtain twitchy" (ie overly interested) by the nasty neighbour. In the end it turned out her offer wasn't appropriate because she found out after the fact that her neighbour was a nasty gossipy person. If she had held back in the first place she would have found that out before she had the chance to be hurt - does that make sense?

I can see exactly where CailinDana is coming from and what she means.

I too know someone who constantly offers favours to others, but it is clear that it is done for her own gain, to make people like her and to make herself feel indispensable to others. She is actually not a very nice person (very gossipy and bitchy) and isn't well liked in the circles I mix in, yet offers to do things for others all the time. Someone will post on FB that a family member is in hospital, for example, and I can guarantee that this woman will be the first person replying and offering to look after the status poster's child, or do something else for them.

I think she is actually a bit of a glory helper tbh (not saying OP is like this btw), and tends to make a beeline for anyone who is having any problems or a difficult time. She likes to be in the know.

In terms of inappropriate offers - I have a lovely next door neighbour and we are quite good friends but recently she offered to have my DS sleep over in her house. She thought she was doing us a favour but really she overstepped a boundary - DS hasn't even stayed overnight with his grandparents yet. Now, I'm not going to hold it against her, but if she expected gratitude for this offer I would be mightily annoyed - we didn't indicate we wanted that level of help and we are not such good friends that I would go so far as to let my DS stay with her for a night. It was just badly thought out on her part, no big deal but if she was actually annoyed that I'd said no then I would reconsider the friendship.

I'm a nice person too, an a people pleaser. I tried to change for a while, but it's just who I am. I try to remember now when someone is rude to me and I've been perfectly pleasant, that its more about them and what's going on in their lives, and not me :)

No, CailinD, I don't feel the OP was being inappropriate inviting the new neighbours to look at work she had had done in her house, as the mother of the neighbours had already expressed an interest and admitted she had looked over the fence at it. By making that offer She was not inviting them to be best friends forever, it was just a casual thing.

If I had moved next to the OP I would just think ' what a lovely, friendly woman'.

What about in America, then, where the custom is to greet new neighbours with pies and cakes, etc? Are they all being inappropriate/needy etc.?

All this British reserve seems a bit extreme, but even most Brits would be happy with what the OP said/did, I should think.

But I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on this.

I'm so grateful for all the kind words and practical advice on this thread It's so helpful to see these things from an outside pov, as I have spoken in rl about the supermarket incident but not the rest. I really will think on all your replies.

beastofburden you are right, toddler groups are pretty hellish. I make myself go to 1-2 a week though for my DD's sake to try and give her a fighting chance not to be an antisocial bugger like me
I am actually slowly convincing myself of the idea of getting back to work pt before DD starts school, but starting with some part time volunteering for a charity. (My wonderful, reserved, but now high flying sister has done similar in the past and has said she will help me apply. We have agreed a time in a few weeks to sort me out - I need the time to mentally prepare myself, and she understands this! ) I have a decent degree but never got started on a 'proper' career (slogging away as a retail supervisor is not rewarding and was mentally exhausting!). It's less about any desire to do some good and more about building some skills and experience to put on my cv as well as improving my own confidence in a lower pressure role. I would love to end up in the type of job that I can feel I'm doing my own little bit of good. Of course, the guilts about possibly leaving my DD unnecessarily are surfacing, but I do see it as better for her in the long term.

Hopefully, a slight change of direction will get me out of the cycle of overthinking other people's and my own actions. I do lack confidence and assertiveness, but I'm comfortable talking to people once I get going, I'm not that awkward. I don't run around looking for things to do and people to help, but when things come up, a modest offer of help just seems the natural thing to do. But when it is thrown back, that confidence so easily crumbles. The example of having the casserole rejected at the door, in peron, I can see why it made you very wary in future, what a cow! And then all the people not giving a shit about trampling over anyone on a mundane or massive scale and getting the benefit of the doubt anyway, well, it is very frustrating, but something I will try harder not to dwell on.

Thanks all, for indulging me, and for restoring some of my faith in the value of being nice

x posts with a few, I'll go back and read...

I totally see what you mean Nadia, and genuinely friendly people like you would interpret the situation that way. However, the OP's neighbours aren't friendly, they're bitchy, but the OP didn't know that before she put herself on the line. She extended a hand of friendship to people she didn't really know - she wasn't protecting herself. It's much wiser to hang back and try to get the measure of someone before giving them a chance to hurt you. If the OP had just said "Hi" then heard the neighbour gossiping then it wouldn't have hurt her - she would have just thought "better give them a swerve" and move on.

Yes, in some parts of America it is the custom to bring cakes etc so people there play that social game and it doesn't come across as needy because that's the norm in that part of the world. It's not the norm here so would come across as weird. It's all about picking up the social cues and expectations around you and being sensitive to them. It is not the norm to invite people you don't really know into your house in the UK. Still a lot of people wouldn't mind if someone who seemed friendly contravened that norm. However the neighbours aren't really friendly people, they're bitchy.

Why do people assume that being nice = being a mug. It's entirely possible to be fair and assertive and be a good person.

Being kind to people you don't know and automatically expecting kindness back is being a mug IMO. It's a fact that the world contains many nasty people or people who just aren't in the right frame of mind to be kind due to their own problems. Being kind to someone makes you vulnerable to having your kindness rejected or dismissed. So it's really not wise to offer kindness to people unless you are ok with having it rejected or you have reason to believe that they will be kind back. That's not about being hard-hearted or anything it's about being sensible and protecting your own feelings. You can't expect others, least of all strangers, to protect them for you.

OP

I can heartily recommend volunteering. I did nearly 2 years in an admin role with a large charity. I had, at that point been a SAHM for 8 years and my confidence was pretty poor. I had sidestepped my professional career before having DCs and had no idea what I wanted to do next.

It was brilliant, and although it didn't lead to a job directly, the skills and confidence I gained, did.