to wonder if being nice is really worth it?

[Doodlecockaquack]

I am nice. I just am. I try to be considerate to everybody and their feelings, probably give the benefit of the doubt far too often, can't not help someone if I can and admire people who are kind and giving over those who are selfish. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, in fact I've never had a lot of confidence, and am acutely aware and harshly judgemental of my own faults and failings. I know I am over sensitive. I've even rewritten this paragraph several times because I'm worried about sounding smug/using 'I' too much/being too boring etc etc

Anyway, my question is this: Are 'nice' people ever happier than not so nice, mean and/or selfish people who have more regard for their own feelings that those of others? Are things which I regard as 'selfish' or 'not kind' - e.g. making hurtful jokes at someone else's expense, willfully ignoring the needs of elderly/vulnerable relatives, little comments intended to belittle someone, pushing ahead of old ladies at bus stops (to name a few recent examples) - really that bad? It's starting to seem to me that people who are selfish/graby/mean to others etc, really do just get away with it and that you get no credit for being 'nice'.

A few examples recently have really shaken my confidence, and I'd really like to know what I'm doing wrong because frankly, I feel mortified and a bit of a mug...

• We recently got new neighbours, a young couple. Being a bit shy and not wanted to be intrusive, I wasn't straight outside grilling them. But, eventually, I quietly left the house to go for a walk as I always do with my DD and encountered and said hello to the mother of the girl moving in. She quickly told me who she was, and called her daughter over to say hello. Less than 5 mins of small talk ensued, during which she told me they were planning some work to the house which we have already had done. She said they had peered over the fence already to have a look (fine) and I said that if they wanted to come in and have a look they were welcome. A few days later, as I was in the front garden, the guy comes home. Similar hellos, about 3 minutes, no mention of the work, just general moving chat. Next day, clear as a bell because we both had our windows open, I hear the girl telling someone about me, saying I had held them both up for ages and joked about the sad local curtain twitchers. Not intended for me to hear I know, but hurtful.

• In a queue for the checkout, chatting away to my DD (2yo) whilst holding her on my hip (out of choice, because she loves to see the till) but with a trolly full, I notice a woman with only 2 items behind me. I smile and ask if she'd like to go in front. She does a funny chuckle and asks if I'm sure. 'Of course'. She hesitates, then says no, it looks like I've got my hands full. I reply I'm fine, I'm about to put DD down, I don't mind. She says 'now you're just trying to make me feel bad, I'll wait here'. I smile and repeat I don't mind, but it's up to her, but don't press it and turn my attention back to my DD. She's joined by her DH in the queue who immediately remarks on the time it's going to take to get through. They continue to huff and puff about how there aren't any basket only checkouts open, then talk about an appt they have to get to. I'm just about to be served at this point, so turn around and say one more time 'if you're in a rush, skip ahead, it's fine'. She replies 'make your mind up love. I'll stay here now and hope I make it... just get a move on yeah?'. They glare at me the whole time I'm packing my shopping (as quick as poss). Why be so rude? And why throw my good intentions back in my face?

• A friend of mine has recently had DC2, 12 weeks early, as I found out via facebook. We are not close friends, but met when our DD's were newborns (2years ago), and meet 1-2 times a month. I added my good wishes to the dozens already on her facebook, but I also sent her a private message, 3 lines long, putting myself at her service if they needed any help with their DD1 or a dog walker while the baby was in intensive care. Several other people (I don't know who they are), publically also offered support. Lovely, I thought, and a general message of thanks came from the new parents, along with periodic positive updates about the baby which were 'liked' by 50+ people, including myself... But a few days later, I got a reply to my message saying thanks for my offer but it wasn't my place to be 'muscling in' and that I needed to 'back off', of course they wouldn't let me look after their DD and that my interest in their lives was hardly appropriate- signed from friend and her DH. I was, and am, mortified, and just a bit godsmacked. I stress, I do not blame them in the slightest for reacting however the hell they feel like because I can't imagine the stress and worry they are feeling. I don't hold it against them, nor will I mention it if my friend ever speaks to me again. I'm just so upset to have caused them extra upset and mortified that I have done the wrong thing but I was only trying to be nice. Isn't that what people do in these situations?

In the last few months these things, but especially the last one, have really shaken me. I know it sounds indulgent and dramatic, but I feel so inadequate. I don't want credit for caring about others, but why does it so often turn into a negative trait? I'm not pushy, in fact, I'm shy and introverted. Would I be better off not giving so much of a shit, since my natural inclination to 'be nice' seems to backfire so often?

Obviously, I apologise for the length and wafflyness (is that a word!?) of this, it is another failing of mine I hope it makes sense to someone. Please don't flame me!

I think that I am a nice person. Im the sort where something bad might happen and while I might think "why me?" I then think "at least it didnt happen to friends and family".

I dont think that being a nasty person would get me any further in life, and I often see people who seem.permanently pissed off or bitter and think it must just be so exhausting to feel like that at the time.

I have opinions that I feel strongly about, such as religion, feminism, boundaries for kids - and if asked I will share these, and of course, they influence.my day to day life - but I wholly respect that others dont and wont feel like i do and dont make it an issue.

I feel you can still be a nice person and not be a doormat.

Sometimes, what a person perceives as niceness can fall in to pushy territory. I know, I used to be one of them. A person commenting that they were busy organising a function would lead to me spending days baking trying to help out. Or even someone saying they were looking for something online would mean I'd spend hours googling. And then I'd come crashing down when those people inevitably stabbed me in the back or didn't show what I considered to be appropriate gratitude. It's been a long road for me to get out of the habit of over offering.

For example, "my thoughts are with you, let me know if there is anything I can do" would probably what the new me would have sent to your friends, rather than coming up with specific examples of what I could do. Leave the ball in their court to come and ask if they genuinely need help. Sometimes it's not even about offering to help, but more of a 'thinking of you' response that is called for. Sometimes an overly pushy offer of help can make people feel that you don't think they can handle things on their own. Take a step back and let people come to you if they need your help.

OP I'm nice too, and I feel your sensitive pain with you! I'd love to be your friend. If you're in the south west drop me a PM and come round for cake :)

I think BeastofBurden has it spot on- can you channel your niceness into a cause or a project where it really will go rewarded and you will get positive reactions from those around you, such as a playgroup, local church activities, volunteering?

I wouldn't sweat the first two examples here, the first one isn't even that bad, everyone gossips about their neighbours and they might have said something out loud which the little girl rather exaggerated, plus they are not your friends, so you can stop being the helpful neighbour and keep out of their way unless they specifically approach you for help.

The second- meh, sometimes people are horrid in supermarkets, I smile a lot in the supermarket to make up for all the grumpy people and chat to old ladies about the best yoghurt or whatever.

The third is the one that has upset you and that one is hard to account for, but as I say, whatever stress a friend was under, I wouldn't expect a concerted rebuff from my friend and her husband and you would be wise to give them a wide berth and let other friends/family help out if they need it. I wouldn't contact them again myself.

Although, having said that I've done volunteering and while some people are quite grateful, some aren't and some whinge about you, the tea isn't the right colour, it's all taking too long, resenting your intrusion in their lives. Basically some people aren't that nice and if you are nice person, it's worth developing as someone else said, a bit of antenna for putting your effort where it will be most rewarded.

You know / meet some awful people!

Your friend's reaction to your childcare offer was nothing short of idiotic, you can only hope hormones were partially to blame. I say partially, because no matter how stressed we are, I think our reaction even when striking out at someone displays behaviour we're comfortable with at some level.
Nobody really acts "out of character" as such, they just keep the nastier impulses under control when things are going well.
Your behaviour seems perfectly normal, it's not you; it's them.

oh Doodle, never stop being yourself! you are a credit to the human race

p.s fancy being my neighbour? :)

You sound lovely but is there any chance you're coming on a bit strong? This does NOT excuse the unpleasant reactions you've had, but I can only relate it to a former colleague of mine who was "nice" to the point of irritance.

She would continually ask if you needed any help, would buy us cakes and sweets totally unsolicited and didn't seem to take "no" for an answer when you advised her that you were "absolutely fine" and wanted to carry on with your work.

I can only suggest that if you offer help or ask someone if they need anything, if the first response is "no thanks" just leave it at that and don't attempt to pursue it.

You do sound like a very caring and pleasant person, just channel it towards the people who deserve it and ignore those who don't.

Good luck and I hope you have some more positive encounters in future.

Not wishing to hurt your feelings, but I think you sound a tiny bit intense and agree with those posters who say you need to find a middle ground.

In the supermarket, I would have offered once and then I would have left it - repeatedly asking is like saying 'do you know your own mind?' to the other woman.

Wrt the fb message, it is hard to say without seeing exactly what you wrote. On the face of it though, I think what you offered was kind and not inappropriate. I think it's not a bad idea to offer specific help - lots of people offer vague assistance with no actual intention of really helping and I think that what you did was offer something solid and real. That's good and they sound like obnoxious twats for the reply they sent you. That said, if you do have a tendency to be too intense, then a vague offer of help would be your best bet in future.

You are worrying too much about how they are feeling and the stress they are under, but given how nasty they were to you, it is not a crime to think 'fuck you' and delete them. You are allowed to put your own feelings first!

With the neighbours, I would keep interaction to a polite hello in future - they've made their feelings known and you don't want to be a doormat.

I am not 'nice' - I wouldn't actively hurt someone but I take a view that in a given situation, if only one person can get what they want/be happy, then that person might as well be me. which is why you won't find me letting everyone else in the queue get on the bus first, even if I do have a buggy and a bunch of kids. I believe I am just as important as everyone else - not more, but certainly not less, so if I am queuing first, I get on first.

Incidentally, some of rudest people I have ever met have been old women - they don't need me to let them go first as they appear quite capable of shoving their way to the front without any cooperation from me!

My advice to you is to be a little less available - make people fit in with you a bit and remember your right to happiness and consideration and manners is just as important as theirs. And when people screw you over, worry less about them and more about you and don't give them the opportunity to do it twice!

I think you sound lovely and I think all those examples are quite upsetting to read. Why are people such shits?

Anyway, please rise above them, you sound so caring, it's a pity people have lost their manners and are so aggressive.

Although it makes me smile and feel childishly grateful, I wasn't fishing for compliments with this thread, nor do I feel that I deserve them just for the basic consideration everyone really should show each other.

To clarify mumsy, there is no little girl. A couple in their early 20s have moved in, and I originally said hello to the woman's mother who was helping with the move. It was my actual neighbour I overheard, although I don't know who she was talking to.

beastofburden

That's a really interesting take on how to keep yourself feeling upbeat.

Yes, I see that I should've offered once in the supermarket and left it. I only turned around the last time because I felt under pressure from the pair of them moaning about being late. In that instance, maybe I was too intense.

I'll defend myself slightly though. In writing on mn, I know I waffle in an attempt to get my point across and as an outlet. In real life, I would never have the confidence nor the inclination to push myself on others and being introverted as I am, actively avoid a lot of social interaction. I have two casual friends via my DD, and a couple of old friends (one of which seriously takes the piss but that's another thread) and that's it outside family. I can hand on heart say I would never try to take over or push, I barely even join in to the group chit chat at toddler groups etc because I'm worried I will appear 'keen' or 'boring' or will interupt real friends chatting, and fight against my own feelings that I am not good enough to be included. Rationally, I know I do not need to apologise for daring to exist, but it's a struggle sometimes. When I gather the confidence to speak to strangers and am slapped back down for it, I can't help but take it personally. In short- I'm always getting bulldozed by pushy intense people, and I am sure I am not one of them!

I think that being nice is just not valued, nor do the rewards match the effort . I think self-presrvation is the only way to go for me, so that's for all your suggestions.

Fwiw, there are some incredibly rude, entitled and downright nasty people in the the world and just because you have had the misfortune to come across more than your fair share, it really is no reflection upon you. They are not that way because of anything you have done - they are just horrible.

Other people can be a pita sometimes.

I think there's some truth that people speak to you in a way you expect to be spoken to- so because you are a self-effacing person who won't be nasty back, your friends (so called) rebuffed you very rudely when you offered help. I'm pretty sure none of my friends would sent me such an email from them and their husbands because, whatever happened to them, I wouldn't accept it and wouldn't speak to them again. People aren't rude to me as they know I'm a reasonably assertive person who would call them on it. I'm extremely kind and will go a long way for a friend, but only on the basis they are basically respectful. The fact you have another friend who takes the piss makes me think that your niceness is a bit too close to doormat than is good for you.

But don't take as the message to stop being nice, more just watch for signs that people aren't so nice, move away from those people, and focus on the really nice ones, the ones who welcome you with genuine smiles, see the effort you are making and see the best in you- and return it on conversation.

Last sentence should just read 'and return it'. Allow people to be nice to you. You sound very hard on yourself- are you not worthy of the same kindness back?

Doodle

you do sounds like your self confidence/esteem could do with some work!

(been there).

I think having children made me more assertive. When they only have you to speak for them, it helps you to speak up a bit.

It's possible to be nice and tough. In fact it's a great combo.

So you do the "nice", such as offer your place in the queue, and then if someone throws the offer back in your face, you do the "tough" - you just have to not care and carry on being nice anyway and not let them get to you.

You should laugh about your NDN who's so overwhelmed by 5 mins of friendly chat that she calls you're a curtain twitcher. You should feel pity for crabby old supermarket couple who couldn't even manage to accept a gracious offer. But you shouldn't care about them or the experience more than that.

I think the problem for lots of nice people is that they expect everyone else to be nice. And sadly they're not.

I know someone who is awesomely, impressively assertive and incredibly caring. She is Canadian; her view is that North Americans do assertive much better

This...

Also question your motivation ( a general 'you', not specific). If you behave like this because its natural and feels right to you, then if others are assholes it doesn't really matter.

Sometimes I will put myself out for other people, people I don't know, but honestly - there are a lot of arseholes out there so just don't be surprised when the kindness isn't reciprocated.

I offer my care on a take it or leave it basis. With the couple in the supermarket, I probably would've been rude back to them - honestly, I would have told them "suit yourself". Whatever. If they want to huff and puff when you'd offered them your place, sod them.

Your friend? People react strangely sometimes. I don't understand it. Oh well!

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread (MN faux pas) but had to comment on the appalling experiences you listed. Truly, what is wrong with these vile people?? I just don't get it at all. How nasty, unpleasant and bullying . I'm very sorry indeed for the last couple, but what on earth was that about?? Pure nastiness imo. You poor thing. You were being kind and caring, how vile to interpret it as 'muscling in'. Fuck em the vile pair.

Sylvia Plath called it The Bees (I think! don't quote me on that!) ie how misfortune brings out the nasties, the 'bees' that buzz around and sting at random. I don't know how it works but I can attest to it happening at various times in my life, times when I've been very, very low... then out of the woodwork come these appalling experiences that knock you flying.

My default is 'nice' but I've had to learn to be hard, or at least develop a hard exterior. I don't mean mean lol, just developed a force-field that says 'don't mess with this one!' tbh that's come about because of too many experiences like the ones you describe (eg delivering a freshly cooked casserole to someone who had just had a baby: to be met with 'no thank you!' and the door slammed in my face. I've found it very hard to give a cooked gift to anyone since, even though I know that woman was a bitch).

Some people get off on cruelty, makes them feel powerful, or something mad . You're the stronger person. Deal with the low self-esteem with counselling - you're much nicer, stronger and appropriate than you realise.

(((big fat hug for you, lovely woman)))

btw I don't go with the diagnosis that you were 'too intense'. You're battling with your own demons, which makes you hang back - the very opposite of intense imo.

btw after the awful home-cooked casserole incident, I got another friend some microwave meals when she'd had a new baby. She practically spat in my face - maybe she thought I was making a comment on her competence? Whatever, it was unnecessary and imo it was bullying. I don't care what people have going on in their lives, there is no need to behave badly.

I now offer once and, if that isn't taken up, I don't offer again (to the point that I feel a bit irritated when people say that 'are you sure?' thing. Of course I'm sure, I wouldn't have offered otherwise lol). The people in the supermarket queue were vile: period. Nasty bullies who enjoyed playing a diabolical game with you. There are some very horrible people about - you need to bear that in mind and not offer yourself so readily.

working on boundaries should be a good way to clarify where you begin and end, Doodle . Not nice/not nasty is a good maxim to bear in mind.

Doodle, being nice is definitely valued, but you will get more back in a context where people know each other, than from strangers.

You are in the limbo years. Toddler groups were one of the least rewarding times for me, because the format suited extroverted types who liked noise and strangers and group activity, and what I like is one to one talks. Life gets much easier once the DC go to nursery school (sorry, Foundation Unit apparently, i am so old, sigh) and you can join a more stable group. You will be welcomed with open arms.

At this stage, perhaps go to a local family centre and see if there is a role for you - toy librarian, helping with cookery classes, english language mentor? What you report about "not quite feeling you deserve to be there" is best cured by having a role. Then people say, oh good, here's doodle, she can help you, she's so kind.

I think that self preservation won't suit you, as it is a bit miserable to always assume people will reject what you offer. Finding a modest place in a system, and being known as a very kind fish in a tiny pool, would be so much more rewarding.