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AIBU?

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

To want to leave this website for making me think about that one.

599 replies

filee777 · 13/08/2013 11:31

It's really really upset me, I've had some great support on this forum but I think I have to be off.

Such a shame.

OP posts:
mignonette · 14/08/2013 17:30

Sorry LtEve I thought you said your Dh was packing to leave and would miss out on family activities. I must have muddled you up w/ another Mner.

mignonette · 14/08/2013 17:34

Muddled you w/ LittleM, LtEve. Apologies.

BeerTricksPotter · 14/08/2013 17:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Amrapaali · 14/08/2013 17:38

mignonette I think it was littlemiss' DH who was going away.

Filee's views are idealistic, talking about a war-free, military-free world. I admire her idealism, but I don't think its so simple to just morph into a neutral country like Switzerland. Not simple, but not impossible either.

About us interfering in other countries' politics and wars, forgive me if I am being incredibly naive, but is that not what the UN is for? Before it was rendered toothless by some of the world powers?

HighJinx · 14/08/2013 17:40

I fail to see how the military would be able to operate if all personnel could choose which orders they followed and which they found unacceptable.

I certainly do not agree with all the orders that have been issued and I have no doubt that many of those who have had to carry out those orders also don't agree with them.

I think it is much too much to ask that soldiers take responsibility for the orders that they are given. They are not privy to all the information that has been used to make that decision. They have not been elected to a position of power to make those sort of calls.

Original poster
filee777 · 14/08/2013 17:42

I dont think it would be easy either amra but it is certainly something to aspire to.

OP posts:
Original poster
filee777 · 14/08/2013 17:43

I fail to see how sending lots of people abroad who are prepared to follow any order, however horrific, is defending us. It just doesnt, it makes our lives less safe.

OP posts:
HighJinx · 14/08/2013 17:47

But having no army or sending an army abroad full of lots of people who are not prepared to follow any order would also make our lives less safe - just in different ways.

It is an unfortunate state of affairs, much of which is of our own making, but it is where we are.

Amrapaali · 14/08/2013 17:51

How would having no army make our lives less safe, HighJinx?

Sunrunner · 14/08/2013 17:53

fillee77 it is not quite correct when you say that soldiers are 'willing to follow any order, however horrific'

A soldier can refuse to follow an order if they believe it is an illegal order. (someone please correct me if I am incorrect dh isn't here for me to ask the nitty gritty)

If a soldier/officer in a senior position ordered his/her soldiers to shoot at a line of children they can and would refuse.

There is also the Rules of Engagement which 99.9999% of soldiers follow.

Contary to some people's beliefs the armed forces aren't sent abroad and let loose to go on a rampage and I don't know any that actually would want to.

HighJinx · 14/08/2013 18:02

I believe that no army would make our lives less safe because as filee777 has pointed out numerous times there are plenty of people in the world who hate us.

While I would love to think that we could just all say 'look everyone, sorry for all that we've done but let's put it all behind us and start fresh tomorrow and be friends' it isn't going to happen.

Original poster
filee777 · 14/08/2013 18:03

If that is the case, why are soldiers engaging in activties under orders than involve sending drones to blanket bomb civilian areas?

Why aren't they (rightly) refusing to do it?

I think that the sickness in the army goes deep, it is in the policies that run it as much as the soldiers that fight in it.

OP posts:
MmeLindor · 14/08/2013 18:04

I think you have to make a distinction between an order that is part of a military plan, and an order 'however horrific'.

A soldier does not have to follow an order to rape or murder a civilian, or to torture a prisoner, indeed such acts are forbidden by the Geneva Convention.

You cannot have a military that does not follow orders. It cannot be a democratic process in deciding to we attack from the left or the right, do we bomb this city or not.

Amrapaali
yes, that should be a decision to be made by the UN. Having lived in Geneva for several years, I don't have much respect for the UN tbh. There are parts of it which do great work, but there is an awful lot of waste of resources.

Original poster
filee777 · 14/08/2013 18:05

Actually high despite the amount of sheer crap we have put the rest of the world through, we are pretty low on the hate list. Mostly because we have a multicultural society and on the ground level embrace that.

Ironic really as the EDL and such like complain that being so multicultural is a threat to us, when actually it protects us far far more than our 'ministry of defence' does.

If we stopped bombing people and getting involved in wars that are nothing to do with us, our national security level would go through the roof.

OP posts:
Eyesunderarock · 14/08/2013 18:06

So you've decided to stay then, OP?
Because I thought you'd decided to leave.

Original poster
filee777 · 14/08/2013 18:06

The soldiers who (back in March i believe) were caught on camera torturing prisoners of war in Afghanistan were not even court marshalled for it.

This stuff IS going on and it IS ignored.

OP posts:
Sunrunner · 14/08/2013 18:10

Uk soldiers?

Original poster
filee777 · 14/08/2013 18:11

Yep, it was all over the papers.

OP posts:
MmeLindor · 14/08/2013 18:11

It is going on and it is not being ignored.

How do you know about that? Because someone with a conscience went to the press and told the truth.

The same way we know about many other military scandals/cover ups. The same way we know about many political or corporate scandals and cover ups for that matter.

Switzerland, btw, isn't a good example of a 'neutral' country. Sure, they kept themselves out of wars, but there was a lot of dirty stuff going on in the background. Nazi gold, not allowing fleeing Jews to take refuge there..

HighJinx · 14/08/2013 18:12

I realise that we are not top of the 'hate' list but we are a long, long way from being able to safely stop having an army. There are still plenty of people in the world who do hate us.

What we do with that army is a matter of debate but we cannot simply get rid of it and I repeat that an army cannot exist if soldiers are not willing to follow orders.

LtEveDallas · 14/08/2013 18:21

If you are talking about the al sweedy enquiry OP, then you are wrong. You have no idea what is going on there.

Boreoff · 14/08/2013 18:29

This thread is offensive and should be closed down.

HighJinx · 14/08/2013 18:33

I suspect LtEve that you have just hit the nail on the head. We civilians have no real idea about an awful lot of what is going on in the military, be it disciplinary procedures or the intelligence that leads to the orders that are given.

Original poster
filee777 · 14/08/2013 18:41

Oh sorry, of course nobody that's 'not military' can possibly know anything.

The first thing that needs to change is this shroud of secrecy, the army above anyone else should be reprehensible for their actions.

OP posts:
LtEveDallas · 14/08/2013 18:59

The Army is responsible for its actions.

There is no 'shroud of secrecy' there are operational concerns, security and dangers for those in positions where OPSEC is essential and open reporting would put people in danger. The military as a whole acts on a 'need to know' basis - you (the wider you) do not 'need to know'.

ICI wouldn't publish it's chemical compositions, formulas and compounds in the open. Neither would any other company. The military is a large multi-national company with international concerns. To publish its workings would be suicide.

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