To want to leave this website for making me think about that one.

[filee777]

It's really really upset me, I've had some great support on this forum but I think I have to be off.

Such a shame.

If we only addressed that which we had 'experience of' then the World would grind to a halt. I have not had cancer. But I have worked in MH with those that have and have suffered MH issues as a result. I have not had many of the illnesses I deal with nor the social problems. But I know I am good at my job and have been effective in problem solving. You do not need to have experienced something to have a valid POV upon it. And sometimes being on the inside means you are too close to the trees to see the objective woods.

Having not been to 'war' does not mean my opposing view is narrow minded. You yourself have shown equal disregard for opposing points of view with no inclination to change what you believe in. And that is fine too.

Threads morph and develop. That is the nature of them as more posters come in with new POV. It would be very tedious if threads doggedly stuck to the same groove. That is the beauty of a debate. It moves on to encompass other aspects that people find interesting.

The difference between saddam and the nazis is that the nazis were invading other countries and trying to invade our country. Saddam wasn't.

I think it's quite appropriate to compare a developing country to our country when it was developing. Would we have welcomed someone 'saving' us with bombs? I don't think we would.

I haven't belittled anyone's experiences but saying the Iraq war was worthwhile because one school was built and a few kids are learning welsh is ludicrous it really is!

God there are some patronisng twats on here today.

When I mentioned the structure of ancient Iraqi society it was to draw attention to the oft posited and erroneous belief that Iraq was and is a primitive land that required the cilvilising attentions of Allied Forces. A land that needed a wonderful democracy like ours.

Fact is they were 'cultured' pretty much before we were And they hate being lumped in with Arabs too. Not that I have any issues with Arabic nations either but in my experience Iraqi's are often depicted as an Arabic state (lumped in with them as some kind of amorphous mass) when they are not.

but saying the Iraq war was worthwhile because one school was built and a few kids are learning welsh is ludicrous it really is

Could you please point out exactly where that is said.

I don't believe every soldier is a heavenly hero same as I don't believe every social worker is a useless waste of space.
It's quite simple isn't it.
FFS some soldiers are vile, the vast majority are decent, same as society in general when you think about it.

'The difference between saddam and the nazis is that the nazis were invading other countries and trying to invade our country. Saddam wasn't.'

Ok, so while Hitler was killing the German jews, disabled, gays and gypsies, that was their problem. It was only because he attacked other countries that we got involved? And following that logic, we should have left the Iraqis to it, cause he wasn't bothering us.

To be honest, I am not sure that invading Iraq was the right thing to do. Not because the oppressed didn't need assistance, but because if you start in Iraq, where do you stop? Why does one country (or a group of countries) get to decide which people are worth saving?

Why aren't we involved in Syria? Why are we not marching into Cairo? There are many regimes in this world that don't share our values, so who decided when their atrocities have crossed some imaginary line?

It is a total mess, and every time we get involved it gets messier but at the same time when thousands are being murdered, how can we not get involved?

The world stood by and let the Holocaust happen. Of course there are historical reasons for not wanting the same mistakes to be made again.

I think soldiers get away with being vile much more than your regular civvy, I think that the chain of command is as desensitised to 'things that just happen at war' than the general public and so things are not reported and are not prevented.

Anyway I'm out. I have said my piece and will start repeating myself if I stay.

I wish for a safe homecoming for your DH LtEve regardless of our difference of opinion and that your time apart flies past.

'The world stood by and let the Holocaust happen. Of course there are historical reasons for not wanting the same mistakes to be made again'

Explain our indifference and the USA's support of Israel's persecution of the Palestinians then?

It IS happening again, it happens in Africa, it is happening in Palestine and we support it. We cannot then turn around and say that the reason we invade foreign nations is because of some sort of deep seated wish to improve human rights. Its not, its something far far more sinister.

Where have i been hysterical?

I think you are reading my posts in a tone that they are not written, i am far from hysterical.

As said before you've gone from saying you're tearful and suffering from a loss of appetite due to clicking somewhere you admit you shouldn't have by viewing a link from spectacularly dense twats from arsse to arguing the toss about Iraq, Nazis and Palestine and blaming anyone who happens to wear a miltary uniform.

You don't think it sounds a little ranty?

filee
Did you read my post? That is exactly what I am saying.

Of course each country decides on which conflict to interfere in, based on self-interest. Germany was more likely to intervene in Kosovo because it was a) geographically close and b) accepting lots of refugees.

Wars are decided by self-interest of a country, and no one believes that any war is fought purely to protect the innocent.

It is complicated, and messy. There are no absolutes.

Exactly, BeerTricks.

I am off again. Got to do some work and not spend the day arguing on MN.

I think soldiers get away with being vile much more than your regular civvy, I think that the chain of command is as desensitised to 'things that just happen at war' than the general public and so things are not reported and are not prevented

OK so that's what you think - that doesn't make it fact.

And I agree that you do sound a little hysterical

How is fucking over loads of people and keeping them in poverty for oil and money and personal gain not 'sinister'?

And no, i dont think having a conversation a day after getting upset about something is 'ranty' i think its quite normal actually.

Yes reading about Kenyan children being abused by our soldiers did upset me, it upset me quite a lot. Yes find out that the forum i spend some of my time on wants to engage with such knob-heads made me want to leave that forum. All totally normal.

Having an issue with the military is also normal, being against terrorism and our country terrorising other countries is also normal.

I dont buy the 'its not the soldiers fault' thing. If an order is one of terror then dont follow it.

Has Mumsnet engaged with them?

No, was it going to happen, did you honestly think it would? and had it [AS IF] you would have had a choice of not engaging with them.

You know ,freedom of choice and all that!

"Come off it, it doesn't matter what I say, does it? You aren't going to agree, you aren't going to listen to anything I have to say. You only want to be right -"

well thats AIBU in a nutshell!!!!! personified on this thread. quote of the day!!!!!

HEAD. WALL

and trenchant views.

do I think all the military are rapists and abusers, no, I dont

do I think some of the military are "heros", yes, some truly are

do I think that some have become insensitived, and behave appallingly? well yes I do, and we know this dont we?

its not so black and white

Mignonette, I am the soldier in our house. DH is a SAHD. He hasn't gone anywhere.

I haven't been able to follow this thread in detail, so I don't know if I agree which everything that filee777 has posted, but I just wanted to say that I admire you filee777 for continuing to post a principled objection to Britain's aggressive foreign policy and the recent tendency to make "heroes" of the soldiers who enact it.

I admire the professionalism of the majority of soldiers and I sympathise with injured soldiers who get a raw deal from the state, but I feel pretty sickened by the sentimental "our boys" guff that increasingly accompanies our waging of very controversial invasions.

The responses to filee seem overly personalised and a little aggressive. Hers is a legitimate view that I broadly share, so I didn't want to leave her to fight her corner without chipping in a word of support.

I dont buy the 'its not the soldiers fault' thing. If an order is one of terror then dont follow it

I just cannot get my head around this. The army can only exist if soldiers follow orders. Maybe you think that would be a good thing but it isn't the way it works. If people refuse to follow orders you simply have a group of trained people sitting about wearing the same uniform.

And on what basis are the soldiers supposed to decide which orders to follow and which to ignore? I doubt they would have enough information in many cases to make that call.

PLEASE STOP with the personal attacks

It would be a real shame to close down an interesting and impassioned debate

Please play the ball and not the woman

Thanks But

I am pretty solid about it, I disagree with bombs and killing people, whether they are my people or others, whether they are committed by my people or others.

I don't think its too much to ask that soldiers stop and think about the orders they are given, the wars they are fighting and make a decision, its a whole lot better than bombing innocents, killing people and turning a blind eye to atrocities.

if that means they often 'sit around in uniforms' then so be it.