To say don't let your young child go to the toilet alone

[1Veryhungrycaterpillar]

Today in a fast food restaurant I saw a lady with a child of around 3/4 who wanted to go to the toilets that were situated upstairs she said she didn't want to go (she had no other kids) with her and let him go alone, am I BU to say I wanted to shake some sense into her?? I suppose I'm more aware of it as I've seen cases of assault on young children in public toilets through my line of work but I would've thought most people wouldn't do it, I am ready to be corrected!

"As it happens, my niece is nowhere near the level of maturity to go and do shopping from the local store, but my nephew is."

Does she have any particular special needs?

No she doesn't. Why would you assume she has? All children develop differently with different personalities. .

For me, not letting them out of sight doesn't mean I go would go into the cubicle with them at aged 12. It would mean I would probably see them go into the toilets and then wait for them to come out. I'd probably even tell them to come and find me in a named shop or place near the toilets where I would be in full view. I would do the same with an adult.
But as a mother to a 5 year old, I won't be doing this for a few years to come.

So exactly what level of maturity do you need to go to a local shop with a list and some money, buy bread, milk, beans and apples then come him again? I can't imagine a NT 12 year old not being able to do that!

cory the not letting out of sight thing was referring to the OP, not generally.

it did sound like they are never allowed to do anything for themselves.
which of course is not true.I was simply reacting to the OP's statement.
I think I phrased it badly, apologies!

if they don't go out with friends that's coz they never asked.

I do notice how they grow and change and want to get more and more independent and I thought I let them. maybe not enough?

I'll look into that, again thanks for challenging me!

But you would be happy to let them out of sight in the sense of letting them do the whole shopping expedition on their own, Fakebook?

So this is just about toilet-going etiquette when you happen to be in company?

If so, I have misunderstood you and apologise. I thought you meant your 12yo won't be able to go anywhere without you and not be allowed to use his judgment about going to the loo when you are not there.

Sorry, missed your post, amazing.

If I can see the entrance to the loos then DD (4.4) goes on her own. I wouldn't let her go if they were on another floor altogether, but I have no problem with her going on her own.

I can't really see the problem tbh.

3/4 definitely far too young, but I'm thinking in terms of getting on a big toilet, locking/unlocking the door and washing hands unaided when sinks are usually too high. My poor little brother was marched into the ladies loos by one of us up until the age of ten because mum was paranoid about hand washing, I doubt abuse or stranger danger even crossed her mind. Very lazy parent as described by op, just for the fact the toilets were upstairs!

Curlew, really? You must come and talk to my brother and his wife about the upbringing of their child then. Maybe help bring the girl out of her shell . You do seem to find a lot of things unbelievable. I don't know if its because you live a sheltered life or because you're just obtuse. No child is the same. I don't really need to repeat that.

Cory, I think there has been some misunderstanding, I'm only talking about going to the toilet when in company. Ofcourse I'd let my child go out alone with friends and use the toilet! I think I mentioned something to that effect upthread. I'd tell her to stay within her group of friends though.

ok, misunderstanding, my apologies, Fakebook

Actually, fakebook- I would be genuinely worried about a 12 year old who couldn't go to a local shop and do simple shopping. And no, I don't lead a sheltered life!

Nor am I obtuse.

actually curlew I see what fakebook means.

I trust my 8 year old to go in with his brother to quickly get milk from tesco while I wait in the car ( walking to shop own his own is not an option, to far) because he will just do that.

but I don't trust my 10 year old, he'd head straight to the magazines and start reading MOTD! he'd be capable to do as he was instructed.

and even if I trust them I can't trust strangers.

remember Jessica and Holly? they were 10, together, but alone without an adult.
their parents trusted them, because they felt they would be safe. I can not blame them!
yet we know what happened.

it is bloody hard to know what's best all the time, precisely because we can't know or control everything.

there are risks and there are risks.
I'd rather err on a side of caution.

Though when it comes to no child being the same, I think we have to remember that it isn't entirely a question of following their lead: when they get to a certain point, their survival will depend on what we have made them learn.

My dd is 16 and is disabled, with anxiety issues. Independence is much harder for her than it is for her peers. But she will leave Sixth Form at the same age 18 as everybody else and have to make her own way in the world; I can't stop her whether I think she is ready or not. So my job is to make sure she is ready. Even if that does mean some pushing.

Obviously, a 12yo is not imminently in that position. But even a 12yo will soon be of an age where she will be socially isolated if she can't be trusted with the same freedom as her peers. So if I were your brother and SIL, I would be actively working on her skills, just as I would be providing extra support to a child who wasn't learning to read or to dress herself at the expected age. I wouldn't be blaming myself: I would be saying "how can we practise this".

oops missed a bit - he'd be capable. ...but would be distracted.

You see, people always bring up James Bulger and Holly and Jessica but the reason we we them as examples is because the cases are so incredibly rare. They are awful- but we can't restrict out children's lives because of awful one off events.

And so what if he reads MOTD for a bit? He'll soon learn what happens if you read magazines in shops- he"ll get moved on by the shop assistants!

The problem with erring on the side of caution with older children is that the decision making gets taken from us very suddenly on their 18th birthday.

And then they have to be able to have enough judgment to know which strangers to trust and which not to trust.

When they go off to uni, chances are that every single person they meet is a stranger.

They will need to build a new social life, decide which men/women they can go to bed with and which are obvious creeps, whom they might marry and who would be likely to end up burying them under the patio.

That radar doesn't get handed to them with the birthday cake. It's what dd is working on now. And what ds at 13 is already gently practising. They can't do that if I am always there erring on the side of caution.

Statistics show that young adults are one of the greatest risk groups. And I expect I will care as much about dd in two years' time as I do now.

How do schools cope with Yr 8 children who are so head-in-the-clouds that they can't even go to the local shop with a shopping list?

Secondary schools ime are places where 11-12yos are supposed to handle bunsen burners and poisonous chemicals and power tools. They don't get excused from their science practical because children all develop differently. Yet we don't often seem to hear reports of school poisonings. And they know they would get into trouble if they burned the place down. So it must be that even these late developers are actually quite capable of concentrating when it is expected of them.

If my ten to twelve year old wasn't capable of going to the shops etc on their own I would me making sure they were.

Ds2 is ten (11 in summer) starts high school in sept where he has a walk then a bus jour ey to school, not a specific school bus just a normal public bus. He needs to be capable of doing this so going to the shops, the park, to his friends etc on his own all helps build his independence. He is very skatterbrained, easily distracted (assessed by camhs for add) but he needs to be able to do these things. And he has stepped up and taken on the responsibility well, the other day he was ten mins late home and I said to him, he has to call or be on time or he will temporarily lose the privilege of going to the park on his own.

Ds1 is 13 and at easter holidays caught the train to London (two hours from us) met up with relatives who he stayed with and then made the return journey on his own, on a recent trip to london him and his friend went of to the science museum and the others nearby whilst I and his friends mum went of to covent garden. We kept in contact by text/phone but they knew the area they were allowed to explore and stayed within it and then met up with us later in the day.

Was I nervous, hell yes but this is exactly the kind do thing he needs to be allowed to do. On school trips abroad they are allowed to go off together and he goes into our city center on his own etc. Ds2 once at high school will be wanting to go into the city with his friends, to lazer quest etc as they all do, so we have been gradually increasing his freedom and responsibilities. Letting him go to the park, walk to adn from school (40 min walk) on his own.

These things do make me nervous, my main concern would be that he gets run over by a car, abduction is not on my list of possibilities. But no matter how nervous I am, I have to have faith in him and let him become more independent, I wouldtn be doing my job as a parent if I didn't.

If I send my almost 17yo DS to grab me some milk, he is guaranteed to flick through MOTD and 4-4-2 mags. My three older DC have run errands/popped to the shop for me since the summer hols before they turned 9 (Sept, Oct and Nov).

I'm a bit that a NT 12yo would not be able to do this. Surely they make their own way to school by then? My older ones' primary school actively encouraged years 5&6 to walk to school, and I absolutely agree with that. We are in SW London and certainly a good 90% of their friends all did the same; and when DD3 is that age it's highly likely that she will too. I'm a firm believer that one of the greatest things one can do for one's children is to grow both their confidence and their independence. I was pretty shocked at some of DD1's chums with whom she started university, who really were very unprepared and unable to do the simplest things, having had their parents do absolutely everything for them.

cory I find that really interesting that our motivations are so different.

you have to make sure you DD can fend for herself, and you put a lot of effort into into it, obviously and understandably.

I just expect them to be able to be ok, because they don't have any SN, so why shouldn't they? but maybe I'm wrong. I have to think about this.

FWIW, mine could peel potatoes and make jam sandwiches at the age of 4. fold and put away clothes, hoover up at 6. they would all be able to ride a bike well by then also.
they are constantly being taught the things we do and know, from how to cook or hammer in a nail or even use a sewing machine to how to deal with money or why education or doing sports is important and so on.

I think they know a lot of things an have lots of skills.
I think they will be in a good position to become independent adults when the time comes.

oh, and they know a lot about pg, childbirth and bf - they could probably come here at night and give advice on morning sickness!
(and they all know how to change a nappy - so see you in 20 years time when you come back and thank me that your Sons-in- law are very hands-on dads!

that is if they are outside long enough to meet someone...)

Exact.y hepsibar and it extends to responsibilities in the home so my eldest two can cook, use the washing machine, etc they are all expected to pitch in at an age appropriate level, evil mummy

Ds still lives in the belief that if he "forgets" half the washing up and floods the kitchen, this will prove to me that he is not capable of doing it. I keep assuring him that all it proves is that he need more practice