To refuse to allow my 12 yo DD to travel unaccompanied?

[ItsDecisionTime]

As part of a pending contact order, ExP who lives in the USA, is asking that our 12 year old DD travels as an unaccompanied minor on her flights from the UK to US (to save him the time and cost of collecting her). It goes against all my parenting instincts on the basis that if anything had to happen on those flights, it would be everyone for themselves. I know people do allow their kids to travel alone but for me, that's just lazy parenting and something I'd only consider in an absolute emergency. She has only just started going into our town on her own but only when she is with a friend. Personally, I can't even contemplate what kind of father would even push for it in court when he knows I'm so set against it.

Have read much of this thread but not all. Just a quick thought on the whole UM subject.

Those who are saying "boarding school kids go UM from 8" are forgetting that boarding school kids are very emotionally self-reliant - used to referring to non-parents when in trouble.
(I have deleted sob story re crying selves to sleep etc scarred-for-life)

That said, I completely agree 12 not too young to do something scary and survive.
The dad stuff is the issue...

Thanks everyone for your varied comments, all of which I've read and given thought to. Although some of your comments/questions do veer away from the OP, I would like to answer some of them:

1. ExP chose to move back to USA from UK 6 years ago on the basis a psychiatrist told him the reason he couldn't hold down a serious relationship was that he needed to live in USA as overseas life life outside the military didn't suit him.
2. DD spends 4 weeks of the summer hols with him in the USA. He collects and returns her. He chooses not to visit her at any other time, despite her asking him to and despite asking for this in the CAFCASS wishes and feelings report which he refuses to stand by because it doesn't say what he wants to hear.
3. I'm a single full-time working mum and do not receive child support from him as whenever it's awarded to me, he gives up his job for a few months so he doesn't have to pay it. I simply can't afford the time or cost of paying for DD contact with her father. He is currently working and earning $6500 per month.
4. DD resents him - a lot. He never contacts her at the pre-arranged times. Often when she Skypes him, he's with a woman and can't speak to her. He promised to send her a $10 allowance every month so she could top up her phone (for Skype use). February was the last time he paid it. He bores her, has a bad temper, is unpleasant but he's her dad and she wants to spend time with him - in her environment, not his where she feels isolated. No other kids to play with, no other family, just him, her and whoever happens to be the latest woman in his life. Sometimes, I thank God that he does have so many girlfriends as without them, DD would be bored out of her mind.

DD has made two very telling comments over the past few weeks. Firstly, she prefers her dad's best friend to him and wishes he was her dad. Secondly, if anything every happens to me, as we have no immediate family, could I please arrange for her to be put up for adoption. How sad is that.

Back to the original point. My opinion is that 12 years old is too young for a child to travel alone and should remain the responsibility of its parents until that child is significantly mature to handle potential dangers itself. That is my opinion and I'm very aware that many people don't share this. If we were having these conversations and she were 14 then I could potentially be swayed, even though I still wouldn't like it.

I am in court next Wednesday and I'll definitely update you with the outcome.

There are huge issues there- I would keep them well away from the flight which is perfectly reasonable and has far less 'potential' dangers than any other sort if travel. You deliver her to a sealed unit, where she is in someone's charge until she is met at the other end. The 'potential' dangers seem more of a possibility, from what you are saying, after she has been met!
Hope all goes well for you on Wednesday.

Ok.
Your situation wrt to your ExP sounds fraught all round. I am sorry you have to deal with this. And your poor DD - the adoption thing is really sad.

I'd stress her distress (bored, repeatedly upset by unkept promises, no other kids around etc) she has to deal with when having contact with her father. The points you made above, basically.

Keep the unaccompanied aspect of the flight quite seperate. I understand your discomfort (although I don't share it, but that's fine), but I fear arguing over that might distract from the much bigger issues here.

Very best of luck in court next week!

I agree with exoticfruits - objecting to the flight is a displacement activity. The real issue is that neither you nor your DD want her to spend a month in the US with her father.

Don't argue about the "unaccompanied" nature of the flight.

Do argue about the lack of contact, care and consideration of your DDs feelings.

I wouldn't allow my dd too, she is 14
She would be terrified of something happening, she'd be too timid to ask people to move if she needed the loo and if the worst happened, who'd really give a shit and support her?

QOD, 'Unaccompanied Minors' are in no way actually on their own - there are some very good descriptions on how the service works from airline staff upthread. There is a seamless system of parent handing over child to a designated member of crew who will seat the UM near staff/other UM's and will literally walk them on and off the plane only to hand over to whoever picks them up.

But fair enough, we've been over that on this thread repeatedly: some of us would (and have) send our kids as UM and some wouldn't.

'Tis not the main issue for OP's situation IMO.

I have read the OP original post and then your last one OP and my attitude changed from 'oh just let her go' to 'is no-one listening to your poor child and what an arse her selfish father is' I travelled up to Scotland on a coach on my won when I was 13 and it was fab but I was going to see my best mate, was not anxious and very independent. I was not dreading going there which always brings about a certain amount of anxiety and a long haul flight with no immediate close relative/friend to detract from that anxiety would be hell for a 12 year old. Plus every child is different and I would have easily handled a plane journey at younger than 12 on my own but I have friends who would not have until they were much older.

Quite frankly you can't force a child onto a plane, you really can't. I am pretty sure it would be stretching her human rights to force her onto a plane on her own when she doesn't want to go. I hope you have a diary of all the times he has failed to sykpe etc so you can show he is not committed to his DD. I personally think he should spend the time in the UK with her as this would surely help their relationship better than 4 weeks bored in the USA. At least that way he could see the places/friends she talks about making bonding much easier.

I hope your DD gets the outcome she wants when you go to court and I hope her feelings are listened too. It must be very heartbreaking for you and distressing. If it was me I would be pointing out the locks on the toilet door and put up with some big scene so she misses the plane

My xp was forcibly sent to stay with his father every summer by a court, and it made him miserable. In that case there was a new wife and children, albeit very much younger, not the revolving doors thing that is going on here.

I think the situation at your xp's is very much worse. I think I would either go to the US with my DD and take my own holiday there at the same time, so I could supervise things a bit, or basically insist he travelled to the UK to see her in the summer.

I don't know about courts but it occurs to me that if you said nobody was trying to stop contact here, but the treks across the Atlantic were causing distress, and the other two options were presented, it would be hard for any reasonable person to object.

BTW, as it's international, do you even have to listen to what a court says? I genuinely don't know. He doesn't seem to be listening and getting away with this.

OP - I really feel for you and do not know what else to suggest apart from using an experienced barrister to argue your case in court.

Your EX doesn't give two hoots about his daughter - she's merely a trophy to him to fulfill his own needs of showing what a great guy he is tp those around him on the states - his past and continuing actions scream this.

Have you asked a professional what would happen if you refused to comply with sn order for her to spend all her Christmas and Summer holidays in the USA? The only real thing a judge could do would be to transfer residency and IME that would be very unlikely to happen since uprooting her entire life would behugely detrimental to her.

Good luck next week and keep us posted. You are not alone in this - there are quite a few of us here who have to deal with non UK EXH who enjoy using court etc as a power game - and that IS what this is about going on what you've written.

I agree that you need to stop saying that you don't like the idea of her travelling unaccompanied. It would just lend weight to any argument that you are being obstructive. The court is likely to take the view that there are perfectly adequate arrangements in place to keep UMs safe, just like there are in schools and other places 12 YOs go without their parents.

You need to come across as being reasonable and putting your DDs needs first. Be very supportive of your DD seeing her father but not of her being put through severe distress for his convenience.

She doesn't want to travel unaccompanied.

She doesn't enjoy her time out there.

He doesn't keep in regular contact between visits.

He makes her promises and doesn't keep them so she doesn't trust him.

She wants to see him but in her home country where she feels secure.

Stick to facts about her needs and feelings, not your fears.

Do you have an opportunity to discuss this with a legal advisor before the hearing?

Thanks everyone. Yes, I am going to be represented at the hearing by a solicitor. I've dealt with the other 15 hearings myself but as he now seems to be going for the jugular in terms of his wants, I feel safer if someone else does the talking. I will definitely update next week.

Best of luck for the hearing.

I really hope the outcome takes away some of your DD's worries

I think it's crazy and bizarre that you're called unreasonable for not allowing your 12 year old daughter to fly alone. What is the world coming to? You're absolutely right that there are so many situations in which she might need a parent present. That sort of protection is a child's birthright.

I'm so sorry that your DD doesn't have a better dad. Might you be able to go out and stay in the area, so she knows you're on hand if she needs you?

Good luck OP.

I wound NEVER let my DC travel on a plane for any length of time at that age. It could be an adventure but what if something went wrong? They need an adult to care and reassure them!

Please do not focus on the flight. You have plenty of reasonable issues to raise. Your objection to the unaccompanied flying thing will not be perceived by the court as reasonable, and will detract from you proper arguments. It will make you look obstructive, and could be spun to make you look paranoid as well.

And I do wish people would clarify the "things that could go wrong" while on an airplane supervised by qualified members of staff.......

Seeker, so do I.

I suspect most people are imagining the 12 year being dropped off at the airport and being left to fend for herself, which I agree would be unreasonable.

I agree with the others. Lots of people might be horrified of the very idea of UMs but the judge may not be one of those people. In all likelihood, the judge will have experience of dcs of 12 and under having to use the UMs system. It makes you look obstructive and distracts from the other concerns. Plus, if the judge agrees that it's not reasonable to travel as an UM and you ex has to pick her up then she still has to go. It doesn't resolve any of the problems except a very minor logistical one.

Best of luck for the hearing and I hope common sense prevails. Under your circumstances I wouldn't be happy either.

I agree that the flight aspect is best left alone though - apart from anything else, it's just a really personal thing to both you as a parent and your daughter.

My DD is nearly 9 and at her age I was happily waving my parents off for week long trips with Brownies etc and if someone had offered me the chance to fly as an UM I'd have bitten their hand off! My DD will only stay overnight with her GP's and I can't imagine that even at 12 she would get on a 9 hour flight without me or DH, although I would probably let her if she was confident and wanted to do it - I'd hate it and worry but I'd go with it for her sake having had a anxious mum myself

I agree with the majority - and the majority think the flight perfectly acceptable- don't bring it up as it undermines your case.

YANBU. I would not be happy with this either OP. I would worry, worry, worry. Can you book a chaperone or something like that ?

yanbu ,sounds like your dd doesnt want to fly alone anyway, if he wants to see her that much he should get on a plane to come and see her .

YANBU.