To refuse to allow my 12 yo DD to travel unaccompanied?

[ItsDecisionTime]

As part of a pending contact order, ExP who lives in the USA, is asking that our 12 year old DD travels as an unaccompanied minor on her flights from the UK to US (to save him the time and cost of collecting her). It goes against all my parenting instincts on the basis that if anything had to happen on those flights, it would be everyone for themselves. I know people do allow their kids to travel alone but for me, that's just lazy parenting and something I'd only consider in an absolute emergency. She has only just started going into our town on her own but only when she is with a friend. Personally, I can't even contemplate what kind of father would even push for it in court when he knows I'm so set against it.

I have never flown as a UM nor have any of my children simply because we've never needed to. I would be totally happy with it though. Cabin crew are CRB'd and there is nowhere for them to escape to.

All my DC's did overseas trips, flying with the school before the age of 12 and I was quite happy. I always find it a shame when parents are against school trips but accept that people do think differently to me, I wouldn't call it lazy and would be cross if someone referred to my way of parenting as that.

If you think about it , you leave her at school every day (unless you HE) with people you don't know, how is it different? Apart from the fact you are closer, you wouldn't be closer if she was travelling with her Father.

I suspect she is 'in pieces' about travelling alone because you are, as parents our feelings and fears about things transmit very quickly to our children sometimes against our very best intentions.

stop babying her for your own agenda

OP - flying as an UM at 12 is not uncommon at all.

However:

1. I am extremely surprised that 1st contact after 6 years has been ordered this way: British or American proceedings?
2. Did you daughter have an opportunity to have her feelings conveyed to the court.
3. Given your ex husbands attitude Im wondering if this is less about the flight and more about how much you trust him to comply with the court order (which is jurisdictionally watertight - as these things can be - I presume?) and return her to the UK.

Did you have representation?

As for r the accusations of you wanting to punish your ex - a bit unkind really, given that this man seems to be acting all about his wants his wishes his needs, but probably because of the lazy parenting comment.

As others have said - separate the issues.

Firstly and most importantly is how your DD feels about all of this. If she is game on, then you should let her. As others have said, it is a fairly low risk environment, so if she is ok with it, then you should be too.

Sort out all of the stuff with your ex. He was bonkers to phone SS about your DD having a sleepover with someone he doesn't know. I hope SS told him they had better things to do with their time - but equally you are being a bit nuts by referring to UMs on flights as lazy parenting.

Get your thoughts clear and most importantly understand how your DD feels - without all the emotional blackmail stuff that could potentially get thrown in the mix here.

Yanbu.

My dd is 10 and my ex lives in America. There is no way I'd let her fly on her own before she is a much older teenager. Ex chose to move to America, therefore he can come and get her and bring her back.

I realise I'm in the minority but that's my view.
For what it's worth when he used to live in the UK I did half the travelling to him and back but flying is different.

I'm wondering how many people on here who are telling the OP that she is malicious and vindictive actually know much about international child custody when it involves at least one parent who is acrimonious towards the other? Especially one who is displaying several of the red flags that may indicate a tendency towards international child kidnapping

OP - another couple of questions....

What were the circumstances surrounding the break up? Did you leave the USA with DD (with or without permission? form the US court if you did)?

Has the USA relinquished all jurisdiction over child custody matters and has the UK solely claimed jurisdiction over child custody matters?

Did our daughter ever live in the state in which your exH is now a resident? Did you?

Also, have you spoken with a solicitor/lawyer who specialises in international child custody issues? (it is a very tricky area of law - especially when it involves country that often doesn't play by the international rules and is slow to act when they are breached)

Have you talked with Reunite to get advice?

While I do understand that the UM system is safe and secure, I personally would hate to send my DD on a long-distance flight at 12. I'm nervous about her getting the bus or walking alone to the high school down the road when she's 11 though, so I'm probably more of a worrier than most.

The more worrying issue is that she doesn't want to go, and that he refuses to come to the UK to see her. It sounds as though he is more concerned with forcing you and his daughter to bend to his rights than he is about contact- if he was that bothered about seeing his daughter, he wouldn't be refusing to come to the UK. In her shoes, I'd be terrified about flying halfway round the world with someone I'd only just met to see someone I barely knew and who refused -as an adult- to make the same journey to see me.

I don't think you are being unreasonable- but I think your justification needs to be that your DD doesn't want to go, not that you think it's lazy parenting. In the court case, I'd make it very clear that she doesn't want to do the journey but you are more than willing for her to be available for contact so that the adult can make the journey.

Also, is your Ex a US citizen?

pinkballetflats, you are (quite rightly) opening a whole other can of legal worms - I know my friend was very worried about whether her son's dad would send him back after his first visit to the States... He did and they have had an amicable agreement for several years now (after a very nasty divorce). His dad (who is British) used to visit him here when he was v little, then come to collect him and mum would pick him up again, and he is now flying as an UM (aged 8). He does this about 3x a year.

ItsDecisionTime, I hope this thread has given you some food for thought and you'll find a way to work it out in the best interest of your daughter.
I don't see how any child should be 'made' to see a parent they don't want to see; never mind a 12 year old.

So if there is an UM on a flight how does the airline decide who sits next to them?

Mumonabroom perhaps you know?

I don't mean "I sat next to a lovely granny who looked after me" I mean is there a system for who sits next to the UM's? Because if there isn't then all the CRB checking in the world (of the cabin crew) seems a bit pointless.

Especially if the seatbelt signs go on for an hour and no one can leave their seats. My fear wouldn't be of a child escaping or getting lost or the plane crashing (seems pretty unlikely) but of being trapped with someone unpleasant.

OP unfortunately you've upset everyone who has ever been an UM or sent their child as an UM with your accusation of lazy parenting. Hence the nasty tone of some of the replies. But of course lots of people do lots of things (without any problems) but that doesn't make them suitable for your daughter or the best thing to do.

Pacific - I'm in no way saying that these things don't work - there are loads and loads of parents who share custody across continents with no problem what so ever.

Perhaps I should have waited for the OP to answer whether or not it was actually more about her trusting this man to do what is right by his daughter...but since he is displaying several red flags, and has been from what appears to be the past six years, that it was prudent to ask a few questions, especially since it seems to be a very odd situation that her first contact in all those years is to meet him in the USA (IME a British court would likely not order this)

OP - were the hearing held in a local court or High Court (which is properly equipped and experienced to deal with international custody issues)?

Eglantine ,

If there is more than one, they normally try to put them together as it is easier for the cabin crew that way. And if they can, they put them by women not men.
Not saying women are nicer .

In the old days cabin crew used to dread the school holidays with eg 50 or more youngsters returning from eg Singapore or Hong Kong or wherever.

ha ha sounds like hell for the cabin crew!!

...but safety in numbers for the children to be in a group with some older experienced ones - quite an adventure. I'd be much happier with this than one child on her own (whose never done it before).

Trained, CRB checked cabin crew would mean nothing to me if my 12 year old was strapped in next to someone predatory or just horrible for 10 hours.

I don't see how any child should be 'made' to see a parent they don't want to see; never mind a 12 year old.

Because a child is unable to comprehend the long-term implications of their decisions until they reach a certain level of emotional maturity/comprehension - whether that is to see a parent, attend school, receive medical treatment.

It is a parents responsibility to ensure that their DCs are educated, and that their current and future physical
and mental health is protected.

Most children object to things that they are expected to do; be that brush their teeth, take medicine, or engage in class. Why should a child be given the option to opt out of a relationship with a parent?

The fact that this issue is in court means that the OP and her ex cannot agree. It is up to the court to listen to their respective arguments and order a way forward that is in the DCs best interests. If the OP continues to object to her ex's proposal on the basis that the travel arrangements are unsuitable then it is unlikely that the court will take her view seriously. If she chooses to present the case for a staged re-establishment of her DDs relationship with Dad, she's got a far better chance of being listened to - and at 12 years old, her DDs opinion will be considered very strongly - hence the OP should be encouraging CAFCASS involvement to give her DD a voice.

did I just type 'whose'?

Took my first solo flight at 10 and loved it. The flight attendants spoil you rotten, and it is a great chance to feel that little bit like a grown up, even if you are only really getting on and off a plane. If your daughter is fine with it then why not try it just once to see how it goes, if she doesn't like the flight over then dad will just have to suck up the cost and fly her home.

trust your instincts. say no. get legal support.

Sorry but assuming you will leave her at the gate and he will collect her at the arrivals area on other side and that she would be happy to do it don't see the problem.

My DD flies on her own.
I don't let her do it all alone - she always travels as a soloflyer on BA so is chaperoned all the way there and back.
Well worth the extra £50 for peace of mind I think.
She did it from about age 12 as well.
Much better for them. They get fast tracked. Get a row to themselves, unless there are other minors travelling and get spoilt by the flight attendants - She loves it!

No for me I couldn't do it for a 12 year old. Absolutely not.

But totally respect and understand others have different views.

I know a lot of people will tell you you're YABU, but personally I don't think you are. I couldn't let my 12 year old go on a flight half way across the world by herself, regardless of whether she'll be looked after by flight staff. YANBU.

Also from further reading it seems he's not really that interested in what she wants just what he wants. He should get off his arse and come over to the UK if he wants a relationship with his daughter, then if she wants to go back with him he should accompany her BOTH ways! He's the one who left the country therefore it's up to him maintain contact.

Disney speaks sense. Also very curious as to the involvement of CAFCASS since no notice seems to(on the surface of it) have been taken of a 12 year old minor...unless these are actually US proceedings which then begs the question: under what jurisdictional basis is the court operating to make such orders?

By your daughter's age my sibling and I were not only doing international flights on our own, but doing complicated transfers,

Most children who's parents live overseas and are at boarding school, do this six /eight times a year, lots of parents live in different countries and to not embrace this option would lead to loss of contact.

BA and other airlines, are use to supervising unaccompanied minors, put them in a pack at the front of plane, by the galley.

If you have decided that you don't want her to be supervised by very capable flight attendants, it's easy, pay for yourself to fly with her.

What ever you think of your daughter's father, if you dropped down dead tomorrow, he would be her only parent, so for her sake suck it up, don't be negative, and nurture what ever relationship they can form.

Do you let her walk to the local shops on her own?