To be totally over the way people let other people treat them at Christmas

[Tee2072]

rather than speaking up for themselves?

Yes, it's a fred about many many many freds.

You're all adults. Act like adults.

Someone insults you, say something.

Someone hurts your feelings, say something.

Someone leaves you out of something, say something.

Fuck 'keeping the peace' and 'not causing a rift'. They have already caused the rift by upsetting you. What do you have to lose except toxic, rude, obnoxious people in your life?!?!?!?

Over ness I give up with this bloody thing

this thread was not about being helpful it was to sneer at women who are what the op calls doormats

another form of bullying, easy to kick people down when they are already there

if we all had a better understanding of dv and changed our attitudes towards those in abusive relationships we may help stop so many women suffering

I have met quite a few women who do not tolerate shit, give back as good as they get and can not see they themselves are in abusive relationships

and really what is the need to tell others you do not put up with crap from others

This thread seems to be less about helping people and more about how marvellous the O.P thinks they are

I can see why it comes off that way. But I'm inclined to think that it could be more like escapee's tunnel vision. If you find a stratagy that works well for you and it transforms horrible into bearable, then evangelism can follow.

I was quite evanglical about estrangment for a while after I cut two thrids of my own family out of my life. It did work for me. Beautifully. The sense of freedom and immediate calm was wonderful, then and now. It just took time and the evolution of the new reality for me to see the undeserving casualities I created in my wake. Thankfully nothing so awful that I feel I need to re-connect with the toxic elements, but it did take the wind out of my sails. I also forgot that not everybody is a carbon copy of me, that the many details of shared lives won't always be identical, and not everybody has the luxury of geographical distance to help stop the fall out leaking into their immediate enviroment.

And then nemisis truely bit me on the arse when old age complicated the dynamic of DH's family and I got to discover up close and personal that standing up for yourself and "just" refuse to let people treat you shabbily, is not so easy when you can't risk meltdowns, flounces, prolonged sulks when (legally, practically and morally) you need to meet a vulnerable person's needs from which (legally, practically and morally) you cannot exclude the involvement and presence of the people you'd least like to share a twix with, let alone the responsibility/decsision making for an actual human being.

It's all been downhill from there on in, to the point where I perfectly understand why people need to ask "AIBU Is it me, or is it them?" Cos there are days when I swear they mess with my head so much I'm no longer sure I'm not in the wrong. I don't know how to describe it, but it's like reality warps when they are around and black becomes white.

As for "how come women don't stand up for themselves". I don't think this is a female specific issue. In most cases you read about even just on here, there is a bloke in there too, probably also feeling hamstrung about being able to turn things around.

Perhaps it is (was?) more acceptable in female heavey forums to talk about this kind of crappy family dynamic and get feedback/support. Whereas men might avoid doing similar for fear of all the posters calling them "doormat", "wet blanket" and telling them to stop "whimpering" thus making them feel a damn sight worse and more isolated than they already did ?

I didn't read the thread/OP as being about DV, abusive relationships. I read it as being about unpleasant, nasty, belittling behaviour, perhaps from partners or, possibly more likely, from family and friends, which people find hard to confront because they are used to keeping the peace and avoiding rifts.

I think the OP (sorry to use the third person, Tee) has made her point perhaps quite abrasively, but it is a valid one. There is a hugely powerful automatism in taking crap, particularly where the dynamic has consistently been for the crappee to always take crap. But it's an automatism that can be broken. It takes a lot of courage and often for the behaviour to push the one on the receiving end beyond their limits, but it can be done. I speak as one who went along with some outrageous behaviour from family before, after over a decade, I broke free. These people's behaviour had natural consequences which I had been protecting them from. That didn't make the behaviour my fault, but it did mean I could choose to protect myself or go on suffering.

There are plenty of support threads already, amber.

I think the discussion here was not about how to help those in abusive situations, or to slate those in such situations, but to express frustration at the sheer volume of threads from women who are having a crap Christmas because of their toxic family.

It is astounding how many threads there are, variations of a theme.

I think that tee worded the OP badly, and I don't agree with all of her statements but calling her an names for starting the thread is no way to win an argument.

I thought the thread was about relatives been arseholes

thought the thread was about relatives been arseholes

Hope so, or I've seriously been posting in the wrong place.

Yes, that is how I saw it, Fanjo.

Why do so many women (and men) accept the totally unreasonable behavior of their family, especially at Xmas?

It went off on a DV tangent, and a victim blaming tangent, but that is the central point.

Me too, SP
I can't believe the sheer number of Pil/Sil/Bil etc. etc. Christmas threads doing the rounds at the moment.
This whole thread suddenly veered into DV and mental health which is not how I read the op.
And Tbh, I don't believe half of them..
There's a lot of people with a lot of time on their hands at the moment.

I have many arsehole relatives. I don't speak to any of them.

I cut every arsehole off. Best thing I did was cut contact from my bio dad. 2 and a half years later and really don't regret it.

If you did read those threads you might see replies such as:

Men don't see dirt/ peel sprouts/ look after dc/ wrap presents/ choose presents etc

Maybe (insert family member here) is depressed/ has dementia/ is autistic etc

All my family are dead. I would love to spend a day with my family. You don't know how lucky you are.

It's only one day! Suck it up and book yourself a spa day in January.

suocera's post is good. It's as easy and as hard as saying 'enough'. I know I've found it hard and it has taken a long time for me to get where I am. I'd rather support other people to get where I am than berate them for not have already done it though.

There are plenty of support threads already, amber.

It's pretty much a given that the thread title would catch the eye of those smarting after unpleasnatness over Christmas. And not exactly rocket science that peppering posts with stuff like "wet blanket", "doormat" and "whimpering" would be an effective way to poke at places that haven't even had time to start scabbing over yet.

I appreciate that "arsehole" and "bitchy" are far more obvious insults, all the same the terms that the OP has used are not exactly neutral.

I think that tee worded the OP badly, and I don't agree with all of her statements but calling her an names for starting the thread is no way to win an argument

I haven't called her any names.

Maybe you should go back and re read Tees posts?

She has been far from polite in many of them [not to me, but other posters]

Look at the one where she indirectly calls someone who challenged her 'thick'

It is more difficult than it sounds.

You can cut people out - I was overjoyed when one relative, who I haven't even had much contact with anyway, got back in touch a while ago. But after the 10th e-mail completely overreacting to some minor perceived slight, I just cut her. It was that ruthless. I felt and feel awful, and we may re-establish contact at some future point, but the improvement in my sanity for now has been worth it.

The difficult times come when the people who sometimes behave awfully towards you are also doing some incredibly kind things for you, and your continued security depends on the kind things they are doing for you. In those cases, it is much harder to act so definitively - or even to make a fuss at all.

It has been said that those who give up their liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security. But unless I want DD to spend the first six months of her life living under a bridge in a shed made out of driftwood, I have to suck it up for now. (We are working on a way out!)

Thanks Empress. I think I'll just sit and watch for a while, because words ain't working.
Choccies too? How thoughtful.

I cut out my Dad from my life. I kept trying and gave up, haven't spoken to him for 9 years.

Three and a half years ago cut toxic 'friends' out of my familys life!

Cut DPs family out mainly, seeing him and my DC, who they adore and who adore them, off for a few days to visit today. No hassle for me, family relations maintained for my DC.

Do I get a badge Tee? Or does the five years off putting up with DV from the ages or 18-23 negate that?

It has been a process. I am now 45 and will take shit from noone!! Some people aren't there yet and may get there with the help of advice gained from posting on here.

Bumble
You've done it before and can do it again. If a person is bringing nothing positive to your life then it's time to walk away.

How is your mum with your DC? Does she put them down?

Bumble
Don't feel pathetic - I think leaving an abusive mother is possibly more difficult than leaving an abusive partner in some ways because we are fed this illusion of mothers always being loving and kind - motherhood is idealised in a way no other relationship is.

So we feel somehow lacking if our mothers are horrible to us, because mothers aren't supposed to be like that.

Think of your DD and how you want her to think of you - do you want her to feel proud that you stood up to her nasty grandmother? And do you want her to say, 'my mum always supported me and was there for me'

Don't underestimate how much even little kids see.

You are in no way pathetic.

If your mother has brought you up being critical to you it leaves you with no self esteem and it makes it extremely difficult to stand up to her as she has shaped your values and very nature.

I know this very well.

Feel so pathetic I have very few people to speak to in RL so rely on MN far often than I should

Sweetheart you are not pathetic.

Most people do not come put of the womb ready equipped to know how to deal and react to their family's dysfunction. And even if they did, the upbringing within the family would impact their expectations in terms of what is "normal" or acceptable.

Keep talking to people online if that is what helps you work through the tangled threads of your family relationship. It is rare for a person to arrive at some kind of resolution or solution entirely by themselves and it is not an overnight process. Perhaps consider not engaging with people who replicate the squashing/belittleing dynamic of you family by insisiting your solution must be the one they suggest and you do it on a timescale they approve of. I don't think that typically works at rebuilding a self worth that has been chipped away at for years, and may do not much more than add new cracks and fraibility right at a moment when you are still reeling from the lastest family upheaval.

Stick with the people who will be at least as much ears as gob and try and filter out the rest.

You are less alone in this than you believe yourself to be.

Yes..ignore people who say you should "toughen up" etc, unless they have been in your exact situation they cannot understand fully.

Keep talking as much as you need to.