To be totally over the way people let other people treat them at Christmas

[Tee2072]

rather than speaking up for themselves?

Yes, it's a fred about many many many freds.

You're all adults. Act like adults.

Someone insults you, say something.

Someone hurts your feelings, say something.

Someone leaves you out of something, say something.

Fuck 'keeping the peace' and 'not causing a rift'. They have already caused the rift by upsetting you. What do you have to lose except toxic, rude, obnoxious people in your life?!?!?!?

unless they have been in your exact situation they cannot understand fully

To be honest even if they accurately think they have a pretty similar history, humans are really, really good at forgetting the the quieter, less decisive and "thinking rather than doing" bulk of the road they took, to the final action based destination that worked for them.

At the time I thought I did all the work to get to cutting out my mum and my brother in the last six months of the relationship. It's only some 8 years down the line that I have had enough space, time and peace to recognise that the process was years and years long. That action packed six months was the result of an awfully long time of rebuilding of my sense of self as something other than the family resolver, protector and crisis manager. I couldn't have got there without the people who were prepared to listen more and pontificate less.

In a family where your perspective has been denied, shouted down or outright deemed irrelevant for years if not decades, being heard and having your disquiet, pain and tightly boxed up anger recognised as valid from somebody who counts as an objective outsider, can be the first step towards being ready and able to say "no more" and follow through with the solution that best meets your needs.

I cut every arsehole off

I did that, in the exhilirating freedom and peace that came with no more contact with my mum and brother.

In retrospect I don't think it was a sign of my having achieved brilliant emotional health. I stopped giving people enough of a chance to demonstrate there was more to them than some poorly chosen words and/or being temporarily off kilter during a rough period of their own. I became a bit hard of empathy, convinced I had The One True Answer that would protect me and eliminate risk, and in the rush to stamp out any new version of the virus before it took hold I don't think I gave enough objective though to the concept that perhaps it wasn't all them, maybe some it was me.

I know my husband had a hairy time of it, watching me take a machete to relationships, long standing or budding, with a determination and speed that smacked of a lost sense of perspective.

He did wonder if it would escalate enough to include him unless he kept his head down totally. Which didn't do wonders for spousal communication. Not brill when I was in total denial about the emotional ramifications of estrangment and was well prickly, hard headed, stuck in black and white thinking and heading towards seeing emotional detachment from other people as the only reasonable form of self protection.

I think I forgot how to cut slack. I was so determined never to be stood on again that I failed to factor in that I am not perfect either, so logically I must contribute to some hiccups, upsets or rows that are part of havng any interpersonal relationships. I also managed to overlook that not every infraction has to be an automatic, instant capital offence, (thank god, or humans would be very solitary creatures indeed).

Also managed to overlook that like everybody else (bar the be-haloed amoung us) I am a flawed human being too and can be an arsehole too from time to time just like (almost) everybody else.

Good post suocera,

LividDil breaking the cycle of being a dormat IS simple, it just isn't easy. You stand up for yourself and don't take the crap anymore - not one person has said that's easy. You have to want to do it and find the place within yourself to make it happen.

To the people disagreeing with Tee, fine you're entitled to your opinion, to the others who are trying to bully her into being quiet or changing who she is at her core - good luck with that, it won't work but it's fun watching you try.

I don't post in relationship threads etc. because I don't live in I'm ok/You're ok. I live in I'm ok and if you aren't trying to change what is happening in your life I can't help. Until people turn that corner for themselves there is little anyone who isn't a trained councillor /psychologist can do to help.

Bumble read the thread about your brother, he was an arse but I doubt you need me to tell you that really. Do you want your family dynamic to change? What do you think will happen if you do try to change it? Can you live with the worse possible consequences? Answer those questions and you'll know if you can do it or not.

WandersOffToPlayWithTheCubTiggaxx

to the others who are trying to bully her into being quiet or changing who she is at her core

There is some very selective reading going on. A blindness to the blatant mirroring of derogative terms used to describe people in a (highly relevant to the thread) context, combined with employing to the letter the precise advice that the OP has been giving.

"People giving you crap and walking all over you" is subjective and will depend entirely on the recipients' perception of being labelled and told they are doing it wrong, by somebody who has not engaged on any level with the very real barriers people struggle with when it comes to exit/disengagement strategies.

It is rather "do as I say, not do as I do, when I think you should, but not when you think you should if that doesn't suit me" to exhort people to "man up" in the face of somebody putting them down or making them feel bad, and then paint as bullying the responses of people reacting to indirect, (mumsnet talk guidelines obeying) insults like wet blankets, doormats, whimpering, thick and "new" used as a dismissive device, when they do just that.

I think the ability to respond robustly has surprised some because there is a tendency to see people stuck in unhappy situations and assume that their incapacity to extricate themselves swiftly and definitively is due to an inherent lack of personality on their part.

However it is not a given that finding it hard to navigate a specific dysfunctional relationship means they are therefore wholly devoid of the capacity to defend themselves and incapable of refusing to stand by in silence when publicly characterised in negative terms by any poster that feels like doing so.

Perhaps demonstrating not quite the wholesale easy target they are sometimes assumed to be ?

I feel no need to change who Tee is at her core. Who she is is her choice and responsibility, not mine. I very much doubt you can know (let alone change) the whole sum total of a person from a single thread on an anonymous internet forum anyway. I'd be taken aback if anybody else posting here felt differently in that regard.

However that does not translate as my (or anybody else) feeling obliged to providing her with an uninhibited opportunity to stick her labels of choice on people, like myself, still reeling from the latest festive fucked up family encounter.

"I think the ability to respond robustly has surprised some because there is a tendency to see people stuck in unhappy situations and assume that their incapacity to extricate themselves swiftly and definitively is due to an inherent lack of personality on their part."

I agree..I have an elderly relative who is very very difficult and toxic, however she is very frail and I bite my tongue as I don't want to fall out with a close relative at the end of her life..she adores my DD..it is extremely difficult and I have been told by people including my DH that I am very very strong to just handle her and NOT tell her just to "get lost" as people blithely propose.

I have been close sometimes but then just put more effort into trying to make things work...recently they have been slightly improved. If I just told her to "fuck off" as people blithely advise she would be extremely unhappy and I don't want that guilt.

It's why I have the whole relationships section hidden.
I have no useful advice or observations to make, and little understanding of why intelligent, adult women, who have legal rights and the freedom to choose, stay in abusive situations, or to put up with them within a family.
I have no issues with where the blame lies, with the aggressor, but I find waiting for the abuser to change their minds and become nicer an unacceptable strategy.
All I can do is to try and help to give the next generation confidence, self-esteem and a respect for others, so that the relationships they form are healthy.

Brilliant posts by SuoceraBlues

To the people disagreeing with Tee, fine you're entitled to your opinion, to the others who are trying to bully her into being quiet or changing who she is at her core - good luck with that, it won't work but it's fun watching you try

Bullying?

Oh the irony.

I don't think anyone is bullying here, but I do think a lot of people are uncomfortable with the different opinions being voiced and it is easier to blank or dismiss something that is at odds with your own views, rather than wonder why.

I don't think I'm being bullied or doing any bullying. Bullying is not expressing a differing opinion or even having one argument about something. Common misconception though.

I just wanted to say that, otherwise I'm really done with this conversation. I stated my opinion, others disagreed. I disagreed again. And so on. And in the way of all MN discussions, we're now going in circles.

Bored now.

Bye.

well, I just explained why i stick with a situation and I don't think that makes me weak or unintelligent but noone answered.

My 41yr old sister travels 200 miles to be with my mother for Christmas then treats her like dirt. She takes it to keep the peace and I can't say anything because it upsets Mum to have arguments in the house especially at Christmas. Now Mum, let us think WHY I hadn't been home for Christmas in 5 years.

Do you get cross and resentful about your elderly, bonkers relative, or do you sigh and smile and not let her damage your self-image or your enjoyment of Christmas though?
I put up with a lot of crap at work, and used to put up with a lot of the crap that parenting a child with AS involves, but it didn't make me feel bad or worthless or martyred. It was a series of active choices for reasons I found valid.
Somehow different to feeling like a doormat.

Me? oh she makes me very unhappy and cross indeed. She doesn't damage my self image though as I know its her and not me.

The problem I have with this thread is that it advocates a "one size fits all" approach.

And life/relationships/family/self-esteem are never going to be that simple.

The OP says that this thread was to avoid typing the same thing on all the threads about toxic families and Christmas. But no-one should be typing the same thing on every thread on broadly the same topic - because no two situations are identical. They might, on the face of it, be factually similar, but people themselves are so different that what works for one situation might be disastrous in another. If you can't/don't want to offer specific, tailored advice/responses to a thread, then it's probably best to leave that thread alone.

I am assertive. If someone is rude, I call them on it. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a doormat. However, a few years ago I found myself sitting in my own bathroom on Christmas day, snivelling quietly to myself because some family members were ruining the whole day. Now, according to this thread I should have simply dealt with it. I didn't. I periodically retreated to the bathroom to have a fresh snivel, and I bit my tongue and counted down the hours till said family members would go home. The reasons I didn't deal with it are too complicated to explain here. The reasons DP didn't deal with it are equally complicated. The reasons MIL didn't say anything are even more complicated.

Looking back now, it would be very easy to think "Oh I should have just told them to fuck off" and to wonder if things might have been different now if someone had stood up to these family members right back at the very beginning of what turned out to be something of a pattern of behaviour, ie they expect everyone else to sort out their problems, run around after them, ask 'how high?' when they say 'jump', and never, ever expect a thank you. And yes, I think things would have been different, but I don't think things would have been better. Cutting them out of our lives would not have been an option so all that would have happened is that we would still have the behaviour, but without an amicable relationship. Because they're not bad people, just people who will always put themselves first.

So we all put up with it because the alternative is a complete falling-out which would have consequences which would be much worse than the irritation that comes with their daft decisions and last-minute demands. That's our choice. It doesn't make us all doormats. It makes us a group of normally assertive people who have chosen to put up with something for "the greater good."

Everyone has their reasons for doing what they do. Some people are making active choices. Some people are finding that their choices are limited. Some people can't face making the choices they know they should make. But no-one puts up with a crap situation for the fun of it - there is always a reason for it. Every single person who posts a thread about toxic family has their reasons. If you feel able to support them or advise them - even if that advice is simply "tell them all to fuck off" then great - but I don't think starting a general rant about all these very different people and situations takes anyone anywhere.

I'm not going to cut and paste quotes from kungfupannda's post, becuase I think it stands perfectly as a whole.

"Please immmagine entire post pasted here between these quote marks"

^^
What she said.

Why do threads where there is an honest and sometimes uncomfortable exchange of views have to be reduced to bullying?

Tee has expressed her opinion. It may be flawed, it may be too simple and not reflect the nuances of family life, but it is her opinion. She hasn't bullied anyone, and no one has bullied her in return.

I don't think there is a one size fits all approach to family relationships - I wish it were that easy to say, 'you have to do X and then Y will happen and all will be well'.

I don't post very often on such threads because I do find it difficult not to be honest and tell the poster that she has to start by taking a good hard look at herself. In fact, I did it on a thread this morning.

It's not victim blaming, it is helping a person sort out where fault lies, and it is never one sided. At some point in the relationship, the downtrodden one has allowed the dominant family member to set the tone.

Of course this happens after years of confidence pummeling, and of course it is the fault of the abuser, not the person being abused.

However, only one person can change the status quo, and that is the person asking for advice on how to change their mum/DH/DP... by no longer accepting the abuse dealt to them.

It is not easy, it's not always the best thing for all the family, and there will be unforeseen complications and consequences. Pointing this out will hurt the OP, but it has to be done.

And I agree that there is no shortcut to tell all women in such situations, by posting one thread. It doesn't mean we can't use the thread to have a discussion about it.

What she said.

I think it's an entirely valid discussion to have. But I don't think the thread title or opening post were particularly well-considered.

AIBU to wonder why people find it difficult to say "no" to family? is one thing.

AIBU to be soooooo over it? is quite another.

If you use the DV analogy, it would be one thing to start a thread saying "Why do women allow themselves to be abused? What is their reasoning? What does it take for a woman to walk away?" and quite another to say "I am so over women whining about their partners beating them. Your a grown woman. Just leave."

I don't think the cries of "bullying" are appropriate either, but this is a serious issue for many people and I don't think the OP has approached it in a compassionate way. If she doesn't feel compassionate and wants to express her annoyance with these people, then she obviously has the right to do it, but I don't realistically think it can be dressed up as being intended as an opener for a helpful discussion.

Not to say it can't become one, obviously.

You are right, kungfu - the OP was lacking in tact and empathy.

I moved back to UK recently after spending 20 years abroad. One thing that I've noticed here is that woman constantly put themselves down.

It is a know issue for British women, that we don't know how to take a compliment, and tend to minimise or shrug them off.

'You are looking lovely tonight'

'Oh, erm. Yes. Well, it makes a change from my usual scruffy look. You should see me in my torn jogging bottoms on the school run'

I've been shocked how many women also minimise their intelligence and capabilities.

'I'm useless/ too thick for this / always making a mess of things ...'

It worries me that by constantly putting ourselves down, we are setting an example to our kids that this is acceptable.

And I agree that there is no shortcut to tell all women in such situations, by posting one thread. It doesn't mean we can't use the thread to have a discussion about it

In order to have a worthwhile discussion that doesn't descend into meaningless generalisations, individuals will have to put their details out there. But that means making yourself vulnerable to snap judgements, leaping to conclusions, stereotyping and sweeping generalisations.

In some threads you make a risk assessment and deem it worth a try.

Other times, not so much.

It is a lot to ask people to look at the pejorative terminology used in this thread, the phrasing that reeks of annoyance that people like me don't either "just" sort it out or at the very least shut up and stop littering the boards with our "self inflicted" complaints and conclude...yes this is a good place for me to talk openly, frankly about something that is raw, painful and complicated.

My sense of self worth is a sometime casualty, not a cause, of the dynamic I am in. It is not static, right after a blitz attack I have a hard time reminding myself that their version of me is manufactured to suit their need of a scapegoat, not an accurate assessment. It is not going to get any easier to keep myself intact if I lower my defences further and leave myself open to another dose of "doormat", "wet blanket", "whimpering" and other overtly belittling comments, right when I have downed my shield.

I wouldn't be adverse to joining in a discussion on the lines you are suggesting on a future, less tainted thread, talking about the whys and hows of being in it and getting out. Would probably be a good exercise in making sense of it. Especially since we had a phone call tonight that would indicate that very shortly my exit from all of this is there for the taking. God knows I'll be in a better place to talk about it when I no longer have to brace brace brace ready for the next bout, safe in the knowledge that I never have to clap eyes or ears on these people again.

It's hard for some Tee......I'm 38+ weeks pregnant with number 4 and every year we go to my parents on Boxing Day, last year we had DP family for 4 days.........this year I said no to everyone! We asked if we could have a quiet Christmas and spend some quality time as 5 before we became 6........well his uncle and nan turned up Christmas Eve, my parents turned up Christmas Day, we were hounded by texts & phone calls all over Christmas by DP mother wanting to come round when we had told her in advance we defiantly didn't want her here as she can't be trusted as she's an alcoholic.......she turned up with his uncle & nan day after Boxing Day! His sister was horrible by not writing Auntie & Uncle in her cards and leaving me out of a present for DP.....a picture of her DC...,,,It's been a very stressful Christmas and I've hated it! I would love to tell them all exactly what I think but to have done what they did means they don't care what people think so what would I gain from telling them? I spent nearly all day yesterday in tears as I'd been so looking forward to Christmas and it was just ruined but they wouldn't care less otherwise none of them would have done it.........I wouldn't dream of turning up at someone's house unannounced when its not christmas let alone when it is!!!