To be totally over the way people let other people treat them at Christmas

[Tee2072]

rather than speaking up for themselves?

Yes, it's a fred about many many many freds.

You're all adults. Act like adults.

Someone insults you, say something.

Someone hurts your feelings, say something.

Someone leaves you out of something, say something.

Fuck 'keeping the peace' and 'not causing a rift'. They have already caused the rift by upsetting you. What do you have to lose except toxic, rude, obnoxious people in your life?!?!?!?

It's so bloody depressing to think I could log on in another 30 years time and see women complaining about exactly the same issues, from their partners doing sod all around the house to their lazy children not valuing the role of their mothers to women biting their tongues as others criticise and criticise them personally.

You probably will Boojum. Sad but true. Just as if you'd logged on 30 years ago.

So let's try and raise our children better than we've been raised, shall we?

Raise them to be helpful and kind and appreciative. To say please and thank you and may I help?

Those are all things I've had to teach myself to do. And my mother still doesn't get why I insist on manners! She actually wrote me an email recently asking me why I make my son sit still in restaurants and at the dinner table rather than letting him play. And why I insist on please and thank you.

I do agree with you, tee. It is frustrating and sad to see women not able to stand up for themselves.

At the same time, we Brits are conditioned to Not Make A Fuss. And I'm including the men in that. Which is why so many men are unwilling or unable to back up their wives against their domineering mother.

I'd hope that those reading this thread and hearing from those who did manage to change things would take strength from that and make the changes necessary.

Well, ML why didn't you "...shake them and say, LOOK AT YOURSELF. You are young, talented, clever and funny. Believe in yourself." ?

Maybe just one person saying it to them would have changed their lives. Or at least given them something to think about.

It could begin to break the conditioning. That I am still not sure I believe is a British wide thing. Or we'd have no leaders. Not be involved in any wars ever. Not currently have protests in Belfast, even though they are the stupidest protests that have ever occurred.

Someone, somewhere is being raised to make a fuss in this country. Let's add our kids to the mix.
.

Actually not so sure we raise Leaders as just more sophisticated bullies

Let's raise kids with empathy and healthy self esteem

My in laws are the problem here. I have stood up for myself, no swearing or raised voices (which was very difficult due to years of conditioning). All of my complaints(?) have been dismissed as me being hormonal, emotionally unstable or I'm faulty. So I've given up. This year it they have stepped it up, despite us having very little to do with them, So DH has finally decided to confront them, in the past he has always thought if he ignores it will go away, it doesn't.

I won't tolerate bad behaviour anymore, if people don't like the way I live my life that is their problem not mine, I will say something, it has taken me nealy 40 years to understand that though.

Life is just peachy for them

Perhaps it's just DH's family being the exception to the rule, but that doesn't ring true for me. Without exception everybody involved in the dynamic is pretty damn miserable. The dynamic is so ingrained that it looks more like something that established itself a very long time ago and been passed from generation to generation. Today of all days I have never felt less disclined to not leap to damning conclusions about some family members, but still, in order to be wholly honest about the whole kaboodle, I think without exception everybody will gain from the family dissolving in the not too distant/very near future, not just my own nuclear family.

They all seem much more caperble (to a lesser or greater degree depending on which one we are talking about) of maintaining realtionships in more normal fashion (with their own in laws for example) when they are removed from their own family realtionships. It's only within their own family that things go so very twisted and topsy turvey.

I think when MIL dies and the link that forces us together is laid to rest I won't be the only one feeling like a prison sentence has been served and I can walk back out into normalacy. Not by a long chalk.

raspberryroop

"So Amber Nothing a woman can do can stop DV ever???"

I realise that this was asked of Amber but, They could stop hitting their partners.

It is frustrating and sad to see women not able to stand up for themselves

I understand that. But it is worth bearing in mind that when standing up for yourself means you have to do it by standing on somebody else's back it feels like a far worse of two options to choose.

I don't like being hurled under a bus. I like the idea of hurling somebody else under a bus for my sake even less. I have to live with me and my conciounce afterwards. And I can't live with having picked me not being made miserable over the well being of an old, vulnerable old lady and my husband's ability not to have to deal with Family War 12.0, all while he is facing the potential loss of his mum.

I doubt I am the only one in this position. The details may be different, but in essence I'm sure pleanty of others are making the same cost calculations and staying on their bum rather than stomping off saying "enough already".

And I can't live with having picked me not being made miserable over the well being of an ill, vulnerable, old lady and my husband ability not to have to deal with Family War 12.0, all while he is facing the potential loss of his mum.

'I realise that this was asked of Amber but, They could stop hitting their partners.'

But Boney, why would they stop? Why would they choose to stop? Decent human beings don't hit in the first place.

TheNebulousBoojum

Interesting place to crop.

Irrespective of gender those that beat their partners are not decent human beings.

"why would they stop? Why would they choose to stop?"
they will only stop when they are forced to stop.

I'm sure that in 90% of cases, the right thing is to confront the offensive relative. The main reason people continue to behave this way is because they continue unchecked for so long - and may think their rudeness is refreshing or amusing. Or, more likely, that everyone's afraid of them and so this allows them to continue an uncensored life. Fuck keeping the peace.

Crop? I quoted your last post.

I agree, people who are abusive will not stop unless made to.

I don't know if I'm being dense but I hear these stories over and over again and just don't get them. This sort of thing certainlly does NOT happen in my household. I respect my DH and if he for one second shows that he's not giving back what I give him, then he is pulled up on it. It is absolutely pointless to leave things festering away and unsaid. In fact, I do this with ALL my friends and family and I don't understand why at Christmas some people just take it. Surely you're just pretending to have a good time then and that's pointless too?

If someone has grown up in a toxic family they might need to relearn everything in order to question others and stand up for themselves. It's not simple.

If you wish to be helpful you could perhaps start a thread which teaches people like this about their rights and how to stand up for themselves.

On one hand I have a thread going right now where I am wanting to avoid a sulk from MIL regarding a receipt. On the other hand, I have already "got gnarly" with bullying FIL and not had him over this Christmas so some of us are trying to keep the peace on the small stuff but manning up on the big stuff.

That sounds like a good plan, Notfootball.

Why don't you Pretzel? It was your idea.

I think it would be good to have a thread like that, but I'm afraid I don't have enough knowledge.

It's common sense really. If someone does or says something you don't like? Tell them.

There. We don't need a thread.

Good idea Pretzel, that would be constructive though and helpful and nice.

It's taken me 26 years of mental abuse, emotional blackmail and misery to be able to stand up to my toxic relatives and say OI NO. The behaviour they have shown to me over those years has been repeated over 3 generations, mother to daughter to grandmother. I'm now 30 and I will not, not, not allow it to continue and destroy my daughters' lives.

It was surprisingly easy once I broke free of the cycle of abuse (and practised on FIL about when he got gobby!) but when in the midst of it all, no way could I have done it. My self-esteem was at rock bottom - thankfully over the last year, I've had a lot of support to build me up to the point where its not and I felt strong enough.

It's so simple to say 'don't like something, tell them' when people might be stuck in cycles of abuse that have gone on for years.

So what made you realise that most families aren't like that, and that you could break the cycle, Enigmosaurus?
What stopped you maintaining the family ethos through your DDs?