To feel bad about lying to my children?

[Meggymoodle]

Father Christmas. Totally acceptable lying.

Don't get me wrong, we "do" Father Christmas but I'm not convinced about the ethics of lying to my sprogs.

Wow some people are becoming really quite rude and personal on this thread! Not convinced I am 'twisted'...

It's a choice isn't it? And it's entirely up to you as a parent how you do it.

You either lie to your child and perpetuate a myth and hope they are not disappointed when they find out you weren't telling the truth (like I was)

Or you can refuse to entertain the idea of FC

Or the third way, which is sort of how I was brought up which was that FC is 'magic' and some people believe etc... which allows for an element of uncertainty. I think this is what I plan to do with my DD as she is still quite young and only just started talking about 'Mr Christmas'! That way I am not stealing the magic of Christmas but also not directly deceiving her.

Also I am not sure I understand how FC is being compared to stories or fairy tales? Do you try to convince your children Little Red Riding Hood or Cinderella exists? Or am I misunderstanding? Even my DD at nearly three understands the concept of pretend.

Nor is it suspending disbelief if you are creating reindeer sleigh markings in the snow or footprints or visiting FC and telling them he is a real live person.

Just tell them the truth - surely they must wonder why the Santa in fenwicks is someone different to the one at the school fair?

Tell them the story of the real Santa Claus and how the stockings were filled with gold coins - every year people try to re-enact the story just as they do when they do nativity plays

Simple

"So do you think playing with dolls is also training a child to deceive? Or an older child going along with the younger child's doll play? Would the kind thing be for the older child to keep stressing that teddy is just a piece of fluff? "

Cory, sorry if I have offended you, but this is not the same thing IMO. This is a personal make-believe/play, not a mass delusion of all kids which must be enforced or you will be ostracised.

It would be weird if you were to insist the doll (or teddy) was actually alive and that he/she would give presents if you believed in 'him/her'.

Also sorry if my history knowledge is not up to scratch, but you knew what I meant I think? Any gift giving in those (ancient) days would have been quite a simple affair ... a far cry from what we expect at Christmas today? (I am not against gifts in principle, only against unnecessary gifts and obligations to exchange gifts.)

To you & the others who have criticised my anti-FC post, I don't mind if you want to let your children believe in FC. But in order to be polite, you must see that I was not free to say what I thought to my own children, just in case they would upset yours?

This is the sort of emotional bullying, (re FC), that I felt up against when the children were young ... and I can still feel it now.

Just wanted you to be aware/understand that some of us 'suffer' a bit, (ie have to abandon our principles), just to keep up the pretence for your sakes!

I don't want to upset people in RL, so thought I could get this off my chest (for once), as this is just the sort of place to post our (different) views and have a little (good natured) debate? Maybe I am not the only one why finds FC story a bit creepy/unfair?

But let's not get too heated?

Let's try to be nice to one another on here, (even if we disagree), especially at Christmas time?

I agree rice

Sorry posted too soon - you aren't the only one who finds FC creepy, I was terrified as a child, thank goodness we lived in a country where people didn't insist he was real!

Mrs De Vere, your story about the fairy and the feather reminds me of after my dad died.
Ds was nearly 3, and not really aware of what had been going on.
A few days after the death we were sitting in the kitchen, and he looked out of the window and waved. When I asked him what he was waving at, he said "Oh, Grandpa's in the garden waving at me." I said "how does he look?" and ds said "happy" and went back to his cereal.
A million explanations, but I know which one I prefer to believe .

Let's try to be nice to one another on here,

Perhaps you should have taken your own advice and not said that children who still believe must be dim then.

The 'pretence' or otherwise of Father Christmas lasts a couple of years at most.

As atheists however we have to 'pretend' a lot longer for the sake of manners. Weddings, christenings, funerals, prayers before meals etc. I was a bit hurt by your implication that as non-christians we shouldn't be taking part in gift giving.

I'm with you SamSmalaidh. Children under 6/7 don't even think to 'look at the obvious flaws in the whole thing'. It's over that age that they start to question and won't necessarily jump to the conclusion that it is their parents, but know that there isn't something quite right. And some children are happy to go along with it and can deal with it all being a bit fuzzy and suspend disbelief. But there are other children, like my older daughter, who are very black and white (not a crime incidentally) who need to know the truth. My younger daugher will probably accept the fuzziness for ever. Good for all of you who find it all straightforward, but it isn't straightforward for everyone. And there are children who are upset when they find out - maybe some of you just haven't met them.

Yes I agree with Rice FC is nothing like playing with dolls.

This is a personal make-believe/play, not a mass delusion of all kids which must be enforced or you will be ostracised.

As we are on this thread, being told to fuck off and so on...

The parents who go all out to try and maintain the lie that FC is real and are convinced it won't traumatise their kids when they eventually find out, are usually the ones furious because their kids find out at school that FC isn't real.

I agree with the posts on here about the lying that goes with FC getting more and more elaborate, and what's really got to me this year is the extent to which school have hyped it up. We don't 'do' FC at home, the kids know that part of Christmas is a character who loves to give, which reminds us that its good to give, but that their presents come from Mummy and Daddy. School (by which I mean teachers, not the other children) have told them that they have to be good to get presents, have told them to write lists of what they want (which is something we don't do) and have 'educated' them about flying reindeer, and shown the Rudolph film at every wet play for the last month. I am unimpressed, they are telling outright lies to my children and going way over and above just going along with a fun story.

Exactly Funny that on one hand children are fine when they find out, on the other hand when a teacher told them the truth there was a class full of 8 year olds in shock and tears...

Good point sam

Sometimes the kids play along with the Santa myth to keep the parents happy

Apologies DoesntTurkeySproutSoupDragOn. I didn't want to insult you or anyone else. (I'm sure your child/children are not dim.)

The problem is that we spend so much time trying to teach our, (young), children to see what is true, from what is not really true, eg kids see TV adverts which say "XXX" is the best washing powder so you MUST buy XXX ... and I say "err I'm not going to buy XXX, cos YYY is fine/better & it's also cheaper." (Adverts are sort of lies at times ... or shall we say exaggerations ... so we must learn to question them. And we don't want our children to believe any old thing the are told?)

FC is a sort of lie which underlines a lot of unfairness in the world, & it really doesn't make sense when living in the middle east, where Jesus was born. (You are right, it is completely connected to celebrating the winter solstice with snow and reindeer etc!)

So why can't present giving be scaled back a bit, (to be like a birthday gift?), and FC given his P45?

Well said spamm

Do your children never get taught myths, fables or metaphor?

Are you so literal? Really?

And how dare you insinuate children who believe are dim.

I didn't really believe beyond a young age. I knew it was impossible. But I indulged in the myth and magic until I was in late primary. Just as I loved fairies. I was certainly not dim.

Take your kids to feed the homeless at Christmas then, if you don't believe in any of it.

There's a big difference between teaching children myths and fables and using elaborate lies to convince them that Father Christmas is a living person who literally comes to their house at night

What makes you think that I don't do that anyway rubber?

In fact I'm pretty sure lots of people who DO believe in FC feed the homeless!

I think an 11 year old that still believes is rather unusual.

But FC is a myth, part of the Christmas tradition for many of us. I don't tell elaborate lies, I just let my dc believe and when they ask, then I will be truthful.

It started with St Nicholas didn't it?

It is a harmless story, myth bit of magic. Yet it is those that don't do FC repeatedly posting, trying to ram it down other's throughts and being all superior about their literal approach to life.

FC was a bit of magic in my otherwise difficult childhood. I was not damaged by a few years of thinking a magical man bought me a stocking. It seems your desire to be right is overiding what your children might really like and I think that is mean.

I cannot believe we have people like rubberglove posting that they have never knowingly lied to their children, and only ever tell them the truth! What a load of rot. Have you never read your child a bedtime story , or do you stick to Atlases and Encyclopaedias? Have you never told your children you feel fine, when actually you are worried sick abut work or money?

You say If they are NOT Christians, then there's no justification for the existence of FC or gift exchanges either. ad then later you say (We are atheists.), and yet you also say that you do give gifts at Christmas. What a bloody hypocrite.

You also say But I was annoyed that gift giving to our kids was not a choice for us ... it was somewhat forced on us by the fact their school mates always got gifts at Christmas (so would ask what ours had got), and that there was at least one kids party where we had to supply "the gift" for them to receive if they were to go. but gift giving is your choice, you don't have to give gifts to your kids (or anyone else for that matter) if you find the whole concept of FC so distasteful and as you are an atheist, the whole concept of Christmas pointless. Why not just ignore it completely?

rubberglove you sound like the most boring, pious, up your own arse liberal twat. I feel sorry for your kids. I hope you have a boring and lonely Christmas, with no gifts, cards, tinsel or joy. Because I sincerely think that is what you want.

Apologies to rubberglove

My previous post was a response to riceburner's rant.

The comparison between imaginative play/stories and Santa makes absolutely no sense. Children know that when you're crawling around the floor roaring you're not actually a tiger, you're just pretending, and no parent would get upset about someone else mentioning that you weren't actually a tiger as it would make no difference at all to the child - it's all about playing and enjoying the pretence. Santa IS sold to children as truth - that is NOT pretending. There is thread after thread on mumsnet about how to make dubious children continue believing, or outrage that a child told their child he wasn't real. That isn't about pretence, that's about engineering it that a child continues to believe something that isn't true. Pretending means that all parties know it's a game, and that it's not real. Santa isn't like that - he is put across as a real person. I'm really surprised that otherwise intelligent people have difficulty seeing that.