To feel bad about lying to my children?

[Meggymoodle]

Father Christmas. Totally acceptable lying.

Don't get me wrong, we "do" Father Christmas but I'm not convinced about the ethics of lying to my sprogs.

DH's parents didn't bring him up to 'believe' in Santa because they felt it was lying. He and his brother have no regrets about it at all and want to do the same with their own children. Didn't do them any harm.

I've never met a child who was traumatised by discovering Santa didn't exist, with the exception of one child who was told abruptly by his parents when he was about 5.

You don't necessarily need to make a big thing out of it, but letting them discover/realise for themselves seems to be the kindest thing. I've noticed they tend to find out around the age of 9 and it seems to coincide with a general feeling of being a little more grown up.

DD never told us when she realised it was us and not Santa, but now says she realised when she was about 9, so 2 Xmases ago. Before last Xmas, when DS was 7, he made a big thing about how Santa could not possibly be fast enough to get presents to all the children in one night and that magic didn't exist so therefore Santa could not possibly be real. (He's a big fan of science programmes, especially Mythbusters.)

I decided to be honest and agreed it was us and not Santa, and just asked him not to mention it to his friends, in case they still believed. It has now turned into a jokey competition where they try to stay awake long enough to catch DP and I putting the "Santa" presents in their room. Of course, DS is usually asleep as soon as his head is on the pillow, while DD is the one I'm likely to catch reading at that time.....

DS and I spent the morning pretending to be cats. Yesterday we were astronauts and flew to the moon. And the Christmas elves put chocolate in his advent calendar.

Were these all lies?

I agree that insisting that FC is real when the child is really too old to believe is ridiculous.

But talking about Santa when they're really little is fun, it's a lovely a game. I really enjoyed it when I was little, even when I had worked out Santa wasn't real.

Err ... sorry I need to rant. (Long!)

I know some people will think I am a miserable "spoil-sport", but I want to tell you all, (semi-anonymously), how I really feel about FC! (I absolutely HATE him!)

FC is a tradition which has become very out-of-place, & pretty much impossible to maintain without duping your kids and making no sense at all. And if kids still believe this story when they are above 5-6, then they must be a bit dim or easily conned? (So I sort of feel sorry for them.) Once they do know, they sometimes play along for a while, (for the sake of the younger ones), but this is training them to deceive as well as be happy to have been deceived?

We want our kids to grow up to be rational/seek the truth and to be not too gullible, yet we tell them this FC rubbish and think it is "just good fun" if they believe it? (Cos they will get gifts!)

I know that most kids are not traumatised by it, (I wasn't), but it did make me understand that adults don't always tell the truth, and that was a disappointment, as I looked up to adults up till this point!

Maybe it's good to find out that adults are not all good/always honest? But in other ways when the adults lose some of their future credibility, it could backfire? (Eg when telling kids what's good for them?)

Telling people lies to make them happy is a tricky area morally. (I tend to think the truth is always better. But I know others are quite happy to lie if they think the truth is not nice enough.)

With my own kids, I did try to tell them the truth wherever possible. And I don't think I ever told them any untruths on purpose. (I preferred to avoid/simplify if the subject was v awkward.)

If people are practising (real) Christians they should concentrate on celebrating the birth of Christ and being kind and generous to others. No need for FC. If they are NOT Christians, then there's no justification for the existence of FC or gift exchanges either.

Everyone can celebrate the feast of mid-winter of course, but there's no point of continuing the myth of FC? He only serves the economy by making us spend money that we would otherwise?

When my children were small, I was quite angry that I had to sort of go-along with the FC lie, due to them being at an expat school, hence most of their friends were being told that FC was real. (I didn't know if I could trust my 3 kids with the truth, in case they blabbed to the others & I would get the blame!)

The expat school probably didn't actually mention FC much I think, as we were in a Muslim country, with Muslim kids in classes, as well as kids of other religions and none. (We are atheists.) It was the parents who were doing it.

I taught my children about why people celebrate at Christmas, (what it means to Christians) and that the spirit of Christmas is to think of Jesus and be nice to others.

I don't like FC because if he existed, he would be very a mean person to not give anything to all the poor/beggar kids in the world. It would be impossible to explain why FC gives so much to rich kids, (whether they have been good or not), yet nothing to most other kids eg our Muslim driver's 5 kids or all the poor kids who lived down the road or the kids in the orphanage.

Our kids were/are fairly intelligent, so I didn't want to insult their (evolving) logic with all the FC nonsense saying that "only good kids get stuff". Or that "only Christain kids get stuff". But I couldn't tell them "the truth" either, in case they 'spoiled' the myth for others. So I was trapped. (And I didn't like this!)

Our kids got some gifts at Christmas, (I am not against some gifts within reason), but we also tried to go away somewhere to avoid the excesses/questions.

But I was annoyed that gift giving to our kids was not a choice for us ... it was somewhat forced on us by the fact their school mates always got gifts at Christmas (so would ask what ours had got), and that there was at least one kids party where we had to supply "the gift" for them to receive if they were to go.

I tried to never confirm the story of FC to my children ... I just refused to talk about it. And I encouraged our kids to agree to give older toys away to some really poor kids living near us, pointing out they didn't get/have anything. (I think like this they must have understood that FC isn't for everyone and that life is not a fairy tale for poorer people.)

FC worked a lot better in the olden days where kids were kept more ignorant of a lot of things for as long as possible (eg where babies come from), and where communities were more uniform (ie 100% practising Christians) and smaller. The cats out of the bag now with constant TV, internet and the shops. And sheer greed which has overtaken previously modest needs.

I think kids get far too much these days and unnecessary things. (In the past kids got an orange or some nuts, or maybe some once-a-year new item of modest clothing?) Everyone now seems to have forgotten that Christmas is about being kind & loving to others. It's not about over eating, over-drinking and mass buying/consumption.

Now my kids are grown up, we still get together at Christmas/NY, (as most people are off work), and we have a normal meal etc. But it's no big deal. It's just a winter gathering. I do wonder if/when they have their own children if they will want them to believe in FC or not. I guess it will depend on their (future) partners?

From my POV, I hope the FC myth dies soon! He's not a force for good! He has his favourites! (Bah humbug!)

But Merry Christmas everyone! (I am not against the Christmas spirit!)

I confirmed to my daughter last year that it was not true because I thought she knew (she didn't really, so that was a mistake) The first thing she said was 'You lied to me' and she still is quite upset about it, although puts on a brave face for little sister. The school mums were furious with me because they thought my DD would tell theirs. She wouldn't and didn't, but I was astonished at how emotionally bought in they were to maintaining the belief in children aged 8/9. I wish we could celebrate it in the way you might celebrate St Patrick's day or something i.e. we are doing this to celebrate a good man who lived long ago and who gave presents to children (or whatever it was St Nicholas did) rather than actually making them believe that a real Santa exists because the come down is quite hard for some children, including myself

Never realised this was such an emotive topic! how complicated modern life is, everything's a frickin minefield!

I think you make some valid and thoughtful points RiceBurner. FC is hard to explain sometimes, I was wondering the other day what happened at school when we were talking about what we had from him realising some children must have had far less.

However, I love Christmas and this is only my 3rd with children, I am enjoying talking about FC and seeing the my sons face as you talk about it. I didn't really know what I would be like, but I do just love the whole magic of it. I don't know what I will do as he gets older. I just hope he grows up to love giving presents and the whole idea of togetherness, just like his Mum.

"FC is a tradition which has become very out-of-place, & pretty much impossible to maintain without duping your kids and making no sense at all. And if kids still believe this story when they are above 5-6, then they must be a bit dim or easily conned? (So I sort of feel sorry for them.) Once they do know, they sometimes play along for a while, (for the sake of the younger ones), but this is training them to deceive as well as be happy to have been deceived? "

So do you think playing with dolls is also training a child to deceive? Or an older child going along with the younger child's doll play? Would the kind thing be for the older child to keep stressing that teddy is just a piece of fluff?

It's precisely because my children are intelligent that I thought they would be able to cope with the concept of suspended disbelief. In my family we do play at FC. And we have done even in the years. Because we enjoy make-belief and we enjoy playing.

"If they are NOT Christians, then there's no justification for the existence of FC or gift exchanges either"

Excuse me for being the first to point out that gift giving at the winter feast is an older tradition than Christianity.

"FC worked a lot better in the olden days where kids were kept more ignorant of a lot of things for as long as possible (eg where babies come from), and where communities were more uniform (ie 100% practising Christians) and smaller"

You really are ignorant! Father Christmas was not a feature of pre-modern rural England.

I dont feel like im lying to my kids, let magic be magic. I dont over do it, but neither will i shatter their enjoyment. In this house, you go along with the magic of christmas rather than the idea of santa, The general rule here is you join in and enjoy the moment.

It's only lying if you are a po faced git.

This.

And Cailin, I put the word "traumatised" in inverted commas to convey all the nonsensical arguments of those who say the Santa myth is bad, not because anyone suggested it.

Santa may not be a fat man in a red suit delivering presents by flying reindeer but he does exist: I am Santa to my children - They write me a letter setting out their wishes, I provide the gifts and deliver them in secret whilst they sleep. And if they have been really naughty I give them potatoes and coal (although when I told DS2 (11) this yesterday he said he would use them to make chips :o Got to admire his outlook on life!

Sounds like Santa to me :)

Santa was an important part of my DCs childhood as it was possibly the only thing they had in common with their friends about the day. There was no Baby Jesus, nativity scenes, stars or carols at our house.

Plenty of gifts, meals and parties with family and friends and fun though. After all it's Midwinter Festival!

I don't understand why you think it's an either/or situation waffles - either your children believe or you're totally literal and logical.

I didn't mean that, I meant if you are very literal and logical and factual about most things in day to day life, and your children are too, then I can understand how it might seem a bigger deal and more like a "lie" to you to play along with the FC idea than it would be to someone who pretends/makes believe about a wide range of subjects of which FC is just the tip of the iceberg. From my point of view it's more about why on earth would I say Father Christmas isn't real, when I happily make out that is real all the rest of the year.

I was just saying that maybe this is why some people think it's lying, because they don't tend to do that.

And to those who are saying it's different to play along with something your child has come out with, to telling them something yourself, I'm totally . Isn't that how they learn in the first place, by joining in with something a parent has instigated? Am I not supposed to initiate any make-believe, just wait staidly until I can join in with something my child has started.

I just can't believe how much people are over thinking this.

I don't know a single person who is bitter or traumatised about Santa.

You talk about the Christmas spirit, well this just stinks of sanctamonious, competitive bullshit. Look aren't we so wonderful, we never lied to our kids. Not even about Santa.

I just wish you would stop bleating on about it and fuck off to your nice truthful, literal Christmas.

And if kids still believe this story when they are above 5-6, then they must be a bit dim or easily conned? (So I sort of feel sorry for them.)

Charming. Maybe children who still believe might be more imaginative. Mine certainly aren't dim, nor are they easily conned. They simply have a healthy and active imagination. I rather feel sorry for any children with a parent who thinks children able to suspend disbelief must be dim - how sad that imagination isn't valued.

It's not suspending disbelief is it though? They actually believe.

I agree with the poster who said that everything is such a minefield! It really never occured to me that there are people out there who dont do the Father Christmas thing because it is lying to their kids. Talk about overanalysing every little thing.

As an aside, when I found out about Santa not being real, I felt the opposite of angry with my parents. I felt that they must have really loved us to go along with all that crap just to see the looks on our faces on xmas morning! I knew exactly why they had 'lied' to me, even at that age.

DS is only 16 months at the moment, but I just cannot WAIT to start getting going on Father Christmas and all the things that go with it!

It's not suspending disbelief is it though? They actually believe.

There is no difference. Disbelief is suspended in order to allow them to believe. They don't look at the obvious flaws in the whole thing - if they did, it's bloody obvious that Santa is your parents.

Ds has never believed in "grotto" Santas. He says they are pretend Santas, because, as we all know, the real one is WAY too busy in Lapland getting the toys ready to be sitting around in shops. Tsk.

Ds told me last night that some people don't think Santa is real. Then he said "but that's silly, because last year when we left the wine and the mince pie out for him, in the morning he had eaten it. So we know he came."
Exactly. Empirical proof.

It's not parents that go along with it/play pretend when their children are little who are "lying" imo - it's when children are 6 or 7 or older and start asking questions, and the parents come up with increasingly elaborate lies to keep them believing (there have been some proper crazy threads on here lately!). Or the kind of parents who want a teacher sacked because he told 8 and 9 year olds the truth...

Only read OP, we don't 'do' Father Christmas at all. We 'play' Father Christmas, but at no point do they think he actually comes down the chimney into our house, or is a 'real' person. But because he is a game, they enjoy it just as much.

Lily yes, that's what we do to, it's a game nothing more.

It reminds me of a girl in my class at middle school (30 years ago now) whose father was a professor, and he did not believe in lying to his children. So she grew up not knowing much about Santa Claus, The Bible, Fairy Tales. By the time we were studying the Ancient Greeks and Romans and reading about Plato and the Decameron, etc..., she found it very difficult to cope with concepts such as the circles of hell and the myths that the Greeks based their thoughts on. She did not understand the Princess and the Pea, or the basis of the 1001 Nights.

Think about how much all civilizations are based on tales that require one to suspend belief - and I am sure our ancestors did not sit around the fire worrying about the moralities of lying. I was brought up with African Legends which talk about Kalulu the Hare outwitting other animals. It does not mean I walked around worrying about walking, talking Hares.

Most children are very capable of understanding the idea of an imaginary world or person, and understand the lesson, concept or idea that it is meant to convey - in fact, many of them have imaginary friends and it seems to do them no harm, and likely helps them cope with their fears and insecurities in childhood.

RiceBurner:
We are not Christians (I don't think Santa has got too much to do with Jesus..?)
Santa in our house only brings the contents of the stocking, which usually has one thing at least ds really wants, but will not be expensive stuff, so not a materialistic bonanza.
Many children over 5 believe in magic. Ds is 6 and (un-stealth boast) unusually academically bright for his age, but the way his eyes get wide when he talks about magic stuff make me want to lie my ass off just to make him happy.
Besides, I still kinda believe in magic too, so how dim must I be?!