Complicated Christmas - what's best for the kids?

[duke748]

I'm not going to say which party in this I am yet, do I can get some honest opinions on the best arrangement for Christmas without giving my 'side'.

Man has double life for 2 years and is found out in June of this year. He has a 15 month old DD with one woman (woman one) (who he lived with) and a 21 month old DS with another (woman two) (who thought he lived with his parents)

He now does live with his parents while he saves up for his own house.

The man and woman two are trying to give it another go and hope to live together next year. Obviously this is not a sure thing, as lots of issues to get over.

Relations between the man and woman one were very fractious but have settled down into frosty co-parenting. Things can and do erupt over relatively small things and all of the hurt comes out.

Woman one has banned the children from seeing each other or her DD seeing woman two. She is very hurt and thinks woman two must have known and sees her as the 'mistress'. Woman two denies this, as man's parents and boss both were in on whole thing and also lied.

Woman one has also fallen out with man's parents as they were involved in the lie. Both say that there is no way back from there.

Woman two would like the children to meet whilst they are still young so that it is not a big 'reveal' later on.

Current access arrangements are that man sees his DD every other weekend and one evening a week. He sees his DS te alternate weekend (with woman two) and also none, one or two day a week (again with woman two), depending on other plans. The DD and DS have not met.

It is the DDs weekend to see her Dad 22nd-23rd December, and the DSs weekend after. It is also the DSs birthday on New Years day.

Woman two and DD live 10 mins from man. Woman two and DS live 2 hours away from man. Woman one is originally from overseas and has strained relations with her family. Woman two has no family at all, no parents or siblings. As they are giving it a go, woman two is not keen on woman one and man spending time alone together.

So (and if you've got this far - well done!) - what do you think is the best arrangement for Christmas for the benefit of the children? Is it worth setting up a 'system' for each year now, or just deal with this year for now? Part of me thinks that they are too young to really understand it anyway, but not sure really.

And yes 'man' is a complete arse and should have realised the consequences of his actions long ago. But what is done is done and I'm most interested in finding out your opinion on what is best for the children. There has been so much hurt in the past, I just don't want it handed down to the next generation. But because I'm involved I'm worried I am not seeing things clearly.

I'm as much a victim in all this as woman two - But you aren't a victim are you.....you are still with this man. If you are a victim it is because you are letting him make you one.

She's hurt, thats why she said that. She has had a baby with a lying deceiving wanker. She has done everything all by herself and it looks to her (even if its not true) that he has supported you and your baby. People say allsorts when they are angry and hurt.

I also think he is still playing you both against each other. Telling you one thing and probably moaning about you, to her.

He is the problem here. He wants to have is cake and eat it, despite the fact that he has been a twunt.

I know you are angry too with what she said but you need to get less angry with woman one and more angry with that worm and get rid of him.

He is still playing you both. Give it a year there'll be another woman on the scene. Trust me

Yes you are a victim of him too OP so I think we're all urging you NOT to be. To bin him off and get on with your life!

How do you know what she's called you? Carrying stories is he?

Why do you not wanting them spending time alone?!

She said those things to my face. As well as trying to hit me. She had to be restrained. Yes she said them in hurt and anger.

Would I have been right to do the same as I was equally hurt and angry?

Betty - his parents lied. I went to where I thought he lived, his parents acted as if he lived there. Who would suspect that someone's parents would lie for them?

Well Duke I suppose at least you know where he get's his morals from.

so if you respect it why is it an issue for you?

Bonvoage - I am the one who did everything by myself. I live 2 hours away. I even gave birth by myself. So, no she isn't angry that she did it all by herself.

If you think staying together for your son will make him happy then I'm sorry to tell you, you are very wrong! Get out now and your son won't even remember you breaking up let alone being together. I'm so happy my parents split when I was around that age as I have no memories of arguments, no sadness that happy times together were no more and no guilt. However friends of mine who had parents break up at an age they could rememeber, blamed themselves, missed times when they were all 'happy' together and witnessed arguments and hate.
Is that what you want?

I disagree however that the children shouldn't see their father. He may be a complete shit head arsehole with women but that and being a good dad aren't always hand in hand. Of course the fact that he's a complete liar is a bit.

I would also err on the side of caution with regards to his friends and family. Tbh I can't see this working long term because at the moment you have rose tinted specs on.

How about he sees his dd on the weekend arranged and sees ds the weekend after (also for birthday) and you spend Christmas with friends/ with ds.

I don't think theres a way you can make this fair. Tbh he doesn't deserve fair but his children do and I'm sure in time things will calm down and they will meet - not much point at the moment as theyre both littles

Hth.
Ltb.

It's not an issue Sock. I only mentioned it so that you realised both children couldn't be together on Christmas Day.

Why do you not want him spending time with woman one?

I wouldn't worry - it sounds like she has the measure of him.

Don't waste time flogging a dead horse. Get rid of the liar and that will be the best thing you can do for your DS.

You thought he was living with his parents. He now apparently really is living with his parents. You live two hours away.

Do you have any evidence that he isn't actually living with woman one and you are still the mistress?

And yet you want to stay with him?!

OP you don't trust him to pick up his DD with woman one.

you will never trust him, and i do think you should run for the hills but as you won't you may as well just let him decide, let him choose what will happen at Christmas let him decide what will happen for the rest of your lives because i think you hardly have any place in his thoughts and i don't think he will consider what you want to happen anyway.

So stop stressing and just let him decide what he will do, he might get the russian belly-dancing virus over the festive period anyway.

Bogey face - it was your FIL and his behaviour which fucked up your exH. Not your MILs.

Where was he supposed to be when you were giving birth?

But he is with you isn't he not her. And how do you know he's doing stuff for her? Does he tell you that? Well I doubt that he has.

I sympathise (I gave birth by myself too) And I am saying this as someone who really understands.

What I think he is doing is telling you that he is at hers helping her with the baby. And then I think he is telling her that he is at yours helping you with the baby.

So you both hate ad resent each other

So where is he really going? Please dump him

I think woman 1 and womam 2 should make their own arrangements for xmas based on what they feel is best for them and their respective dcs. They shouldn't concern themselves with the man because ultimately he is the cause of this shitty situation. He must have realized that this was always going to end badly.
Woman 1 I don't blame you for being livid! Especially with his parents for helping him create this clusterfuck and lying on his behalf!
Woman 2 I think you are very naïve and silly for wanting to be involved with a man who has proved himself to be an extremely callous self serving liar.

Lola - I do trust him to do pick ups and drop offs with his DD. that is what happens. Can you not read?

But duke, don't you see, a child has TWO parents, if one is a lying cheating bastard, then it's sadly up to the other one to protect the child.

Lying cheating bastards can still be adequate as parents, but they can't be adequate in relationships, and children will see this and grow up with a very distorted view of what's normal.

Can I ask a question? I think I have read through all of your posts but apologies if you have already explained this.

Does 'man' want to see his dd on Christmas Eve/Day and so has said to you that he can't see you and ds? But you want to see him on these days?

If the answer is yes to both then I think he is telling you something big and that you should listen to him.

Having been the "child" who got the big reveal as an adult (20) and then finally met half sibling over a decade later, I can only say it is really hard to forge a relationship which as a child should be a birth right.

I think there is far too much pressure on Christmas as it is without having one child missing out on their mother and being with a happy family set up. I think the two women need to find a way for their two children to get to know each other and be siblings without the involvement of the dad/grandparents etc. Have child centred activities and get the dad out of the equation. I think once woman one and two come to terms with their issues then and only then can Christmas with whoever be discussed. For 2012 its too soon.

As things stand none of the children see their dad on Christmas, but do they miss out? No.

I know this is no time to joke but this thread reminds me of the "supersoaker" thread. Everyone keeps trying to persuade the OP it's the wrong thing to do but the OP serenely ignores them...

From the OP: "As they are giving it a go, woman two is not keen on woman one and man spending time alone together"

By all means give it a go, but do be realistic, though: he doesn't sound as though honest open commitment is something he knows how to do.

And why does it bother you if he spends time with woman 1? Given her vitriol, she doesn't sound as though she is interested in having him back. She's probably the lowest risk where potential adultery by him is concerned. I agree you and she must beware of him playing you both off against each other.

I get that you were as deceived as she was, so her anger at you must have been very hard, but as you and he are still together, she was always giong to see you as the enemy. Unfair, but not surprising.

I'm confused. How is continuing a relationship with this deceitful excuse for a man helping your DS? Your child can have a relationship with him but you don't have to as well! I'd concentrate on my own family all year round including Christmas and let this man worry about the sibling relationship with his two children. For my part I would tell my DS about the existence of his sister but ultimately if this waste of skin wanted his children to know each other they would and the dd's mother could do nothing about it.

Leave the bastard and find someone who shows you and your child some respect or stay single. That's the best for your son - not this pathetic specimen who is not a positive role model for anyone.