Complicated Christmas - what's best for the kids?

[duke748]

I'm not going to say which party in this I am yet, do I can get some honest opinions on the best arrangement for Christmas without giving my 'side'.

Man has double life for 2 years and is found out in June of this year. He has a 15 month old DD with one woman (woman one) (who he lived with) and a 21 month old DS with another (woman two) (who thought he lived with his parents)

He now does live with his parents while he saves up for his own house.

The man and woman two are trying to give it another go and hope to live together next year. Obviously this is not a sure thing, as lots of issues to get over.

Relations between the man and woman one were very fractious but have settled down into frosty co-parenting. Things can and do erupt over relatively small things and all of the hurt comes out.

Woman one has banned the children from seeing each other or her DD seeing woman two. She is very hurt and thinks woman two must have known and sees her as the 'mistress'. Woman two denies this, as man's parents and boss both were in on whole thing and also lied.

Woman one has also fallen out with man's parents as they were involved in the lie. Both say that there is no way back from there.

Woman two would like the children to meet whilst they are still young so that it is not a big 'reveal' later on.

Current access arrangements are that man sees his DD every other weekend and one evening a week. He sees his DS te alternate weekend (with woman two) and also none, one or two day a week (again with woman two), depending on other plans. The DD and DS have not met.

It is the DDs weekend to see her Dad 22nd-23rd December, and the DSs weekend after. It is also the DSs birthday on New Years day.

Woman two and DD live 10 mins from man. Woman two and DS live 2 hours away from man. Woman one is originally from overseas and has strained relations with her family. Woman two has no family at all, no parents or siblings. As they are giving it a go, woman two is not keen on woman one and man spending time alone together.

So (and if you've got this far - well done!) - what do you think is the best arrangement for Christmas for the benefit of the children? Is it worth setting up a 'system' for each year now, or just deal with this year for now? Part of me thinks that they are too young to really understand it anyway, but not sure really.

And yes 'man' is a complete arse and should have realised the consequences of his actions long ago. But what is done is done and I'm most interested in finding out your opinion on what is best for the children. There has been so much hurt in the past, I just don't want it handed down to the next generation. But because I'm involved I'm worried I am not seeing things clearly.

Yes, I suspect I did waste my time with that post. I suspect everyone on this thread is wasting their time. But at least that wasted time is measured in minutes and not the years you are proposing to waste on this man.

I suspect most people don't mind wasting a bit of time trying to stop you wasting your life.

You keep saying you are a victim. I disagree. You were a victim, but you are now making yourself into a party to this man's appalling, destructive behaviour. Forget the other woman - she and her troubles are nothing to do with you. Worry about yourself and your child and the mess this waste of a skin is going to make of all your lives.

I cannot believe you would want your son to have anything to do with his vile grandparents. I cannot see how exposing him to them is in his best interests. Their behavior was appalling, I would not want my child anywhere near them.

I agree with the pp who suggested counseling. For your son's sake, if not yours.

duke i am pretty sure that no-one here is trying to insult or upset you. And I for one am not coming from a position of superiority or having a fabulous life; more from a position of experience. I am a SP to 2 dcs and I stayed with my abusive DH for 12 years...I know how hard it is and what it is to have low self esteem

If you posted this in the Relationship section, then you would find lots of women with these experiences (maybe there are lots on this threda...i dont recognise user names)

We cant not tell you....to save your tears. It is hard to hear, but it has to be said for YOUR sake AND your sons

WHy would you cry again if what we are saying isnt true and we are just a bunch of drama loving harpies?

As I said earlier, the truth hurts more than the lies doesnt it :(

I should add to what HonKong said that I have been the fool too many times. Thats why I know whereof I speak. If posting the reality on here makes even a tiny bit of difference to another woman doing the same thing, then I dont consider it time wasted.

But as I said, you will do what you will do, just remember that MN will be here to support you when it all goes bad......again

I don't think anyone's trying to hurt you OP, I think they're trying to help you. I know how hard it is to do it all alone, I am a lone parent to 3, my oldest has ASD, my family live 200 miles away, my ex 400 miles away. It is hard, I know it is. I ended up leaving my job and going on benefits because I couldn't cope with everything I was trying to do. But do you know what, no matter how hard or lonely or tiring it is, I am happy because I am no longer trying to fix a relationship that is irreparably broken and because I accepted that I don't need that stereotypical nuclear family, I have the best little family in the world and we have a fab time together.

You can be happy, you can retrain, your son can have a relationship with his father and paternal family, you can have all of these things and not trade it off by being in a relationship. I hope that one day you see that and move on from this man.

funding your studies

duke
It doesn't have to be all or nothing i.e. with him or totally alone. You can create 'family' and traditions in many ways.

I would choose some very good and solid friends and would create festive traditions with them. Christmas, birthdays, easter,,,

Maybe even a Godmother/special aunt.

Get together with other Expats for that community and belonging feeling.

See if you have any other family members i.e. cousins that you might get on with?

I really think that the above will benefit your son more than creating traditions with this man that he might not turn up next xmas or next birthday and break your son's heart. I wouldn't build up hopes and expectations and yearly traditions with him or his family (they have lied too)

Poor OP, you have my sympathy, you really do. But you have to be honest, this "smokescreen" about Christmas is just that. No-one involved seems to have a problem about what has been planned for Christmas other than you. As for being concerned about the OW's DD, she'll be 18 months old she won't have a clue and, for the moment, while she is still so young, it really is a question of, "happy mummy = happy baby" until she is a bit older and her mummy, who is her primary carer, has had a bit of time to heal and put her hurt behind her. This situation won't and shouldn't last for ever but for the moment it is the case.

I too am not convinced that your reasons are sound ones. They may be if you could be absolutelycertain that your relationship with this man has a better than average chance of success but the evidence of this rat's behaviour and his parents' complicity are totally against that ever being the case.

You are contemplating leaving an area where you have a job and friends (I believe you said you spent last Christmas with friends?) to move to an area 2 hours away where you, presumably, have no friendly support you, to become totally financially and emotionally dependent on this excuse of a man and his equally shitty parents? *And to make your darling DS equally dependent upon them???!!!! Please, please think again and again and again!

some support

more support

How on earth did he get his parents to collude in this charade?

& how did it all come out?

I'm sorry duke, it sounds like you really are seeking to do the best by your DS, but there is no way this is going to end up being the best for him.

Fuck me I thought Jeremy Kyle was on in the morning

Unfortunately OP there is nothing you can do about his DD. That's for her mother to decide or a judge if he wishes to take it to court.

I'm all for keeping the children out of the parents relationship/break up issues as long as the child is safe and happy.

Maybe she will calm down in a year or two, hopefully while the children are young anyway.

But that us for him to deal. He's made his bed so he has to lie in it.

As for you, all you can do is let your son know he has a sister. The rest is out of your control.

Still think you are completely mad to be involved with him though.

the grand parents dont have any respect for OP, do they?
its not good to foster that relationship

Great links, HongKong. No-one says that going it alone will be easy, duke but the, "easy/better option" now will almost certainly turn into the, long term, "bad choice". I speak as one who did exactly the same thing, chose the option that I thought was best for my children but, in hindsight was actually the one that felt, "safest" to me at the time and I, too, absolutely convinced myself that it was,"best for the children". I really, truly believed it...and I was wrong, so wrong!

Sorry for typos. Feckin' predictive text

how did he get found out?

The man has no hope of being a decent, honest human being if his parents are that deceitful.

Just think about it OP, this could be your son in 20 years time if he has that kind of influence around him.

As the saying goes "like father, like son"

I'd like to know how he got found out too

I know I should leave this thread alone but it makes me sad to think of you trying to make this man into something he's never going to be, OP.

I had a crap father. He didn't cheat on my mum - as far as I know - but he was a chronic liar who made my mum very unhappy and quite possibly contributed to her death by lying about our finances so that she carried on working when she suspected she was seriously ill and put off getting her cancer diagnosis.

He lied about finances, about stupid things, about his family background, about his first wife and child. He lied about when he would be home so that I would literally be sitting in the hall waiting for him when he was out with his friends. My mum had a nervous break-down when she was engaged to him, due to his lies.

As a result of his inability to tell the truth, I only found out that I had an aunt and uncle and cousins a few years ago, by which time my aunt and my uncle's wife had both died, so I never met them. I only found out about my father's first marriage and my half-brother when I was sixteen.

You know how long it has taken my father to even begin to unravel his lies about his family? I am 37. He told me I had an uncle last week. He has yet to disclose the existence of my half-brother but I suspect that disclosure is coming soon. The problem is that this has led to a whole new mess of lies and deceit as neither my uncle or I want to let on that we know each other in case it scuppers my DSs minimal relationship with the man DS1 thinks is his nice "other grandad" who he sees twice a year and who sends presents. At some point I will have to decide whether to tell the DSs that my father isn't very good at family stuff and we need to tell him some fibs, or whether I just let them drop us all right in it and let my father bugger off and stop speaking to everyone again.

It is never just one lie. A liar is always going to be a liar, and liars breed more and more deceit. I would rather my mother had said "you know what? bollocks to you and your fibs" and told me the truth when I was a child, even if it meant he left us. I would then have had a normal, open relationship with my extended family and not now be trying to decide what half-truths to tell my own children.

I wonder what he would have done of woman 1 hadn't wisely dumped him.

listen to kungfupanda OP. People want better for you.

I think everyone knows where he'd be if he had the choice to stay with the woman he dumped woman 2 for, who he moved in with and spent Christmas with, and missed being at his son's birth to be with.

That's what's confounding about this - what story can the OP possibly be telling herself that justifies how shoddily he's treated her?

Woman 1 could go with that when they got back together he was so desperate to keep her that he didn't tell her that he'd had a pregnant girlfriend, and just hid that fact while he lived the life he wanted.

But woman 2 was left whilst pregnant and treated as a dirty secret for years so he could be with woman 1. He didn't even attend his son's birth.

There's no way to plausibly explain away how he humiliated her that doesn't involve accepting that he didn't love her, even on his own pathetic terms.

All the people involved in the deception know that.

How could you choose to be the obvious second choice of a man who treated you so appallingly?

And do it so you can have some bullshit SAHM charade going on?

There is no way he's committed to woman 2, even if his commitment meant anything.

My gut feeling is that you and your DS will not be spending Christmas with him and definitely not moving in with him and being supported by him.

This will not be your decision. He will not be around by then. Sorry.

I think there is a very good chance that the OP has hidden this thread :(

I too have pondered the reason for duke to start this thread at all. Various phrases have gone through my head reading her posts - "elephant in the room", "big picture" and "can't see the woods for the trees" being dominant.

Duke, it seems to me that you are trying very hard not to see the woods here. Your concentration on the absolute minutiae of Christmas for two toddlers who have no concept of Christmas, when your whole life is in such turmoil - I wonder, is it a case of if you don't distract yourself with such unnecessary details, you think you will have to look up and see the chaos and you will start screaming?

But you posted on MN. And not just in MN but in AIBU. Where, if nothing else, bluntness is assured. Some part of you must have decided that if you couldn't bear to look up from the detail to see the big picture, then you would get someone else to do it. Because that is what MN is good for. Everyone else knows no details beyond those that you furnish, and has no emotional involvement beyond their own empathy. And lacking all the details that you are currently drowning in, we can only see the big picture.

Take a peek at that big picture Duke. Yes, it is very scary. But it won't go away and you're going to have to look at it sometime. Please, don't make yourself and your son financially dependent on this person. He will let you both down. And then the big picture will be even scarier.