Complicated Christmas - what's best for the kids?

[duke748]

I'm not going to say which party in this I am yet, do I can get some honest opinions on the best arrangement for Christmas without giving my 'side'.

Man has double life for 2 years and is found out in June of this year. He has a 15 month old DD with one woman (woman one) (who he lived with) and a 21 month old DS with another (woman two) (who thought he lived with his parents)

He now does live with his parents while he saves up for his own house.

The man and woman two are trying to give it another go and hope to live together next year. Obviously this is not a sure thing, as lots of issues to get over.

Relations between the man and woman one were very fractious but have settled down into frosty co-parenting. Things can and do erupt over relatively small things and all of the hurt comes out.

Woman one has banned the children from seeing each other or her DD seeing woman two. She is very hurt and thinks woman two must have known and sees her as the 'mistress'. Woman two denies this, as man's parents and boss both were in on whole thing and also lied.

Woman one has also fallen out with man's parents as they were involved in the lie. Both say that there is no way back from there.

Woman two would like the children to meet whilst they are still young so that it is not a big 'reveal' later on.

Current access arrangements are that man sees his DD every other weekend and one evening a week. He sees his DS te alternate weekend (with woman two) and also none, one or two day a week (again with woman two), depending on other plans. The DD and DS have not met.

It is the DDs weekend to see her Dad 22nd-23rd December, and the DSs weekend after. It is also the DSs birthday on New Years day.

Woman two and DD live 10 mins from man. Woman two and DS live 2 hours away from man. Woman one is originally from overseas and has strained relations with her family. Woman two has no family at all, no parents or siblings. As they are giving it a go, woman two is not keen on woman one and man spending time alone together.

So (and if you've got this far - well done!) - what do you think is the best arrangement for Christmas for the benefit of the children? Is it worth setting up a 'system' for each year now, or just deal with this year for now? Part of me thinks that they are too young to really understand it anyway, but not sure really.

And yes 'man' is a complete arse and should have realised the consequences of his actions long ago. But what is done is done and I'm most interested in finding out your opinion on what is best for the children. There has been so much hurt in the past, I just don't want it handed down to the next generation. But because I'm involved I'm worried I am not seeing things clearly.

There are lots of holes in that plan. Mainly because it makes you, and ds by proxy, dependent on a duplicitous, selfish, unreliable liar.

I am going to sign off now, by genuinely wishing you the best of luck OP. Unfortunately you will most definitely need it.

It looks to me as if most of those reasons are for you OP, I do see that your DS will indirectly reap the benefits however.

Do you want to stay with him for financial security? Is that what you mean by 'best' for your son?

As regards contact with his dad's wider family, I'm not sure I'd personally be that comfortable with how casually they've colluded in such a horrible deception. It's certainly something I'd consider when thinking about positive role models for/ influences on DS.

We live 2 hours away is why most of those don't happen at the mo.

Option 1 - you stay with him and are miserable as he will never be faithful or trustworthy. Ds can't fail to pick up on the tensions. He lives with his father for a few years then is really really hurt when you split up (as he's older and used to a full time father) when arse does the dirty on you (inevitable at some point i'm afraid).

Option 2 - you move on without arse and create a happy life for DS on your own (maybe meet a decent man and have a happy family life with a kind and loving step dad). Ds can maintain a good relationship with his father but will be removed from the hurt caused by, being in effect rejected by arse when he is older and you split up (he will believe that it's his fault in a split - children always do.). If you split up from arse now but allow DS to keep in regular contact with his father, DS will know no different as he is so young and will enjoy his own special relationship with him that will not be affected by his fathers arseness.

A no brainer for me in deciding what option is in your DS best interests. Man will be a better part time father than a full time one who doesn't care how he treats the women (note plural) in his life.

OP I dont doubt that you have your sons best interests at heart, but you are misguided

he has your relationship as a blue print; you are teaching him that it is correct to lie and cheat and treat women like this; that you are not to be respected. For him to grow up to repeat this behaviour is not in his best interests

also you say you are angry with your partner and describe yourself as his victim; you will be resentful and your relationship/home will not be happy, no matter how hard you try

a man does not just have to be better than your dad. Respect is the minimum

can you outline for us, why you think it is in your sons best interests for you to stay in this relationship?

Why the fuck would you want your son to spend time with the poison that are his grandparents?????? I am beyond amazed at this alone-they actively played a massive part in his deception, why would you have anything to do with them never mind your poor son

I suspect that others may be having the same problem with this thread as I am - it is your motivation for posting it that concerns me.

It isn't for you to involve yourself in any way, shape or form in his arrangements for contact with his DD. It is absolutely none of your business. You aren't even living with him - it's not as though she will be coming to your home or having anything to do with you. It feels like you are trying to "organise" yourself into his life, by talking about long-term arrangements and seeking advice about contact arrangements about another woman's child. It is the kind of thing that step-parents are often criticised for on MN, but in this case you aren't even a step-parent. I just wonder if you have fallen into the trap of thinking that if you make enough long-term plans and involve yourself in enough of his life, that you will make the relationship long-term and valid, almost by default.

The unfortunate reality of the situation is that you were the other woman, even if you didn't know it. You were the mistress who has become the girlfriend by dint of the partner dumping him. He lived with her, he was with her for years (possibly minus a short period of time, although I wouldn't be taking his word for that). She was his partner. She was part of the family with pictures in the in-laws' home that had to be hidden from you. Unfortunately you were his mistress, who he saw when he could lie well enough to his partner, and who he left out in the cold when it was easier to lie to you than to her. It just seems pretty straightforward, but you seem to be trying to make it into something much more complicated.

I don't want to be unkind, but I think you should take a big step back and try to look at this objectively. He cheated on his live-in partner with you. She dumped him and now he is sort-of in a relationship with you, holding out the possibility of a proper relationship next year.

You and she are now in the same boat - neither of you are living with this man and both of you have contact arrangements in place. Neither one of you is in any position to make plans with him involving the other one's child. I think you just need to worry about your own child and forget about the other woman, and don't trust a single word he says about her as he is probably lying about you to her, and may well be holding out to get back with her if she'll have him.

not to mention that he is likely to split the family up at some point anyway; better do it now whilst your son is younger

Oh dear :(

Best for your son? I could give up work, I could retrain, I could get babysitters, I dont have family, none of that is for your son, dont you see that? I think that in your desperation to have the family you didnt have a child, you are latching onto the first one that will have you, no matter how bad they are. As I said before, just because they arent as bad as your own family, doesnt make them any good for you or him.

And all of that list is dependent on him being a good man and supporting you both. Given his past behaviour, do you really think that is likely to happen?

Yes he could see him on a more regular basis, but this man didnt even make sure he was at his sons birth, do you really see him as being Mr Family Man day in day out? Do you think that he would be happy for you to give up work, retrain etc when he has another child to pay for? And do you honestly think that your son spending time with the grandparents who lied to your face about him still being with his partner would be a good idea? Do you want them to have any opportunity to tell him things that you might not know about?

When people said that she was his preferred choice they are talking about the fact that she wasnt the one he dropped at Xmas, she wasnt the one that gave birth alone, they are pretty big indicators that you and your son are not in his top ten priorities. HE is his only priority, and I dont think it will be very long before you find yourself the OW again.

You will do what you will do, but I beg you to reconsider. Atleast get some relationship counselling to see why you are putting up with this crap.

Oh and you are not doing Ds any favours by staying purely for a relationship with arses duplicitous family. That would be improved by being a part time relationship so they have less chance to pass on their dubious values to DS.

At least two of your reasons for stayibg with this man revolves around his parents. Who covered up your ds's existence when it suited. I don't think much of their gping skills and certainly wouldn't encourage a relaionship.

Kunfupanda - whilst I appreciate your post - totally unwarranted as I have already said I won't involve myself in his DDs plans for Christmas and I don't get involved with their contact at all. So you wasted your time with that post.

X-posted...none of your reasons for staying with him even come a close second to having a strong independant mum who respects herself and models healthy relationships.....honestly

Ive been somewhere similar...you wont heal yourself, with nay of the stuff you list

Er....Duke Kungfu was answering your OP, and if you dont involve yourself, then why did you ask?

also...by staying with this man, you are saying to him that his behaviour and treatment of you and his son is acceptable to you; and he has no reason to change at all

why is he still living 2 hours away?

I wanted to make sure what was agreed for Christmas was fair to an observer who wasn't on a side.

Actually I think Kungfu had it spot on but you don't want to hear it.

To be fair though, no one wants to hear the truth when they are in the middle of a shit relationship. At

At some point you will come to the realisation that he is a loser. I hope its sooner rather than later

I live 2 hours away for my job.

"I hope (perhaps niavely) that my son will judge him for his behaviour as a dad since."

The naive thing is that you assume (on no evidence) that the "behaviour as a Dad since" will be something positive.

In less than two years this man has abandoned your son and provided him with a secret sister.

He's about as shitty a father as it is possible to be.

Your son might grow up to judge you for inflicting such a man on him.

As for the rest of your plan - are you out of your fucking mind?

You are planning to give up work to make yourself fully financially dependent on this untrustworthy liar?

For real?

And you think it is advantageous to your son to spend more time with the evil, duplicitous bastards he is unlucky enough to have as grandparents?!

Jesus H Christ

You can't inflict all this crap on a little boy just so you can retrain for a career you'd like better.

That's pretty much what this boils down to.

It's the most grotesque example of self-serving "happy mummy = happy baby" I've ever seen, by some distance.

You are planning to give up work to make yourself fully financially dependent on this untrustworthy liar?

do NOT do this

why hasnt he moved to be with you?

Fool me once, shame on you
Fool me twice, shame on me

You're setting yourself up for an almighty crash. Fair enough, most of us have at one time or another. But you're setting your son up for the same and that's wrong.

HongKongPhooy - why hasnt he moved to be with you?

Because he's shacked up somewhere with Woman number three I should think

Am retiring from this thread now before I start crying again.

I am not saying happy mummy - happy baby at all. I'd lay down my life for my son. So far I've given up my body, my carreer and every waking moment of my life since he was born. I am trying to do the best with a shit situation. I've not said I'm going to be with him no matter what. I've said I'm giving it a go. I'm not stupid enough to think its a plan with no drawbacks.

I would love to be a strong independent woman who models good behaviour for my son. But I've done everything for myself for so long I'm afraid I don't have it in me to do it all alone anymore (and I mean all alone- no family support remember) I've made a tentative decision to try with him for the sake of my son.

And thanks to all those who have given me kind words as I promise to think long and hard before any decision is made. I do appreciate your concern.

Feel free to judge me and my parenting skills whilst I'm gone. I'm sure it will make you feel superior about your fabulous lives. But remember a shit storm could be looming for you. I only hope you find it as easy to make the right decisions if it does.

I too feel kung fu is very close, and why the OP doesn't want to hear.

It's an extraordinarily sad situation, I hope Duke can come out of this with some dignity intact and build a wonderful new life for her and her little boy.

I should have known the whole sordid tale in AIBU would drag in the people who love to pour hurt on hurt They are not saying these things to hurt you - they are saying them to avoid you being hurt anymore. The children certainly get to know each other - if only to have an ally in later life with an equally useless father. Beyond that it frankly beggars belief that you think you can try and construct some sort of cosy family Christmas together. Maybe people in real life are pussyfooting around you and telling you things might work out now everything is out in the open, but if that is the case they are only telling you what you want to hear. How can you believe anything this man says, or anything his parents say come to that. He lives two hours away from you - how do you know he doesn't have another family tucked away somewhere. I don't doubt he is plausible with his dying nan and swine flu excuses, but men with secret lives always are - they wouldn't get away with it otherwise (I'm willing to bet we'd be utterly charmed by him if we met him in real life). How can you even think of moving in with him? I would move as far away from him as possible to avoid being drawn into more of his elaborate deceit.