Complicated Christmas - what's best for the kids?

[duke748]

I'm not going to say which party in this I am yet, do I can get some honest opinions on the best arrangement for Christmas without giving my 'side'.

Man has double life for 2 years and is found out in June of this year. He has a 15 month old DD with one woman (woman one) (who he lived with) and a 21 month old DS with another (woman two) (who thought he lived with his parents)

He now does live with his parents while he saves up for his own house.

The man and woman two are trying to give it another go and hope to live together next year. Obviously this is not a sure thing, as lots of issues to get over.

Relations between the man and woman one were very fractious but have settled down into frosty co-parenting. Things can and do erupt over relatively small things and all of the hurt comes out.

Woman one has banned the children from seeing each other or her DD seeing woman two. She is very hurt and thinks woman two must have known and sees her as the 'mistress'. Woman two denies this, as man's parents and boss both were in on whole thing and also lied.

Woman one has also fallen out with man's parents as they were involved in the lie. Both say that there is no way back from there.

Woman two would like the children to meet whilst they are still young so that it is not a big 'reveal' later on.

Current access arrangements are that man sees his DD every other weekend and one evening a week. He sees his DS te alternate weekend (with woman two) and also none, one or two day a week (again with woman two), depending on other plans. The DD and DS have not met.

It is the DDs weekend to see her Dad 22nd-23rd December, and the DSs weekend after. It is also the DSs birthday on New Years day.

Woman two and DD live 10 mins from man. Woman two and DS live 2 hours away from man. Woman one is originally from overseas and has strained relations with her family. Woman two has no family at all, no parents or siblings. As they are giving it a go, woman two is not keen on woman one and man spending time alone together.

So (and if you've got this far - well done!) - what do you think is the best arrangement for Christmas for the benefit of the children? Is it worth setting up a 'system' for each year now, or just deal with this year for now? Part of me thinks that they are too young to really understand it anyway, but not sure really.

And yes 'man' is a complete arse and should have realised the consequences of his actions long ago. But what is done is done and I'm most interested in finding out your opinion on what is best for the children. There has been so much hurt in the past, I just don't want it handed down to the next generation. But because I'm involved I'm worried I am not seeing things clearly.

Thank you Betty and Granny.

I should have known the whole sordid tale in AIBU would drag in the people who love to pour hurt on hurt. I just want to do the right thing for my DS and also for DD (what else do I call her? I don't think she's my daughter, but if I say her you could think I mean woman 1)

I can't do right. Whichever way I turn is hurt and pain.

OP I am so sorry for you and for woman one and, of course, both the children involved. However, I have to agree with kungfupannda when she says that, though the comments may seem harsh, they do seem to be the truth. We do only have what you have written here to go on and if you are holding something back well... that is your choice, but on the evidence you have given you must see that he began a baby with woman one whilst knowing you were pregnant? That really isn't much of a commitment to you or your DS is it?

His family aren't to be trusted either, they have lied to both you and woman one too.

As someone who came from a broken family (for want of a better phrase) and who stayed with her ex, "for the sake of the children" I can only say, "think long and hard and carefully about all this". If I could turn the clock back, knowing what I know, I would have left my ex years ago when the DCs were still small.

As far as this Christmas is concerned, the children are too small to know what's going on, rest assured about that. You seem a little resentful that woman one doesn't want her DD to meet you or your DS but, truthfully, you may want the children to meet but if it was proposed that it should be by way of your DS going to meet her DD at her house with her and man, you wouldn't be very happy I guess? The children will, of course have to know one another at some point as they are related and it would be unfair not to but just as justified for man to take your DS to visit her and her DD as for him to bring DD to you and yours you know?

So hope you, and woman one can find peace and happiness for the sake of the children as well as yourselves.

I'm sorry you're upset op :( its your life, relationship ds etc but please be careful! It sounds like he picks vulnerable women to manipulate. Have a lovely xmas with ds no matter what you ultimately decide to do.

OP, had you been with this bloke long before you became pregnant? And did you visit his house etc? I'm just wondering as surely it would have been clear that he didn't actually live at his parents', if you'd been to the house. And were there never any alarm bells that he was in fact in a "committed" relationship elsewhere?!

I'm sorry that you're upset by the comments on here, but nobody - to me- seems to be being cruel. Just honest. You are worth so much more than someone who can not only lie to you and your child for months on end, but convince their parents and workmates to join in the same cruel ruse.
If he is capable of fucking over both you and Woman One to such an extent, then - as others have said - there's only so long until women three, four and five emerge from the woodwork.

I think the reason people are giving their views on the relationship as a whole, rather than just focusing on the Christmas question you asked, is because you talk about getting into a Christmas routine with the children involved in this whole sorry mess. But the fact is, from the outside, it looks very unlikely that Christmas 2013 will even be an issue with this bloke, as by then who knows how many other little secrets he'll have revealed.
Talking about setting up a "system" therefore seems pointless, as this man can't be trusted from one day to the next, let alone one Christmas to the next.

As far as Christmas goes, I'd not even question his plans. Make your own arrangements with friends or family - is there someone you can arrange a nice meal with? Keep the weekend arrangements with bloke if you must, but nothing else!

Hang on a second, there have been loads of posters here giving you genuine advice and haven't just come on to "pour hurt on hurt".

I can't do right. Whichever way I turn is hurt and pain.

Yes you can. You can leave this fucker and find a decent man who will enhance the life of you and your son and not fuck you over again and give him a very skewered view of an acceptable way to treat other human beings.

I don't know what you wanted from this thread. You want to know what's best for your DS and her DD? Well, you've already decided and the DD is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. I'm sorry to shout but you've been told this over and over.

Just stop trying to get involved in her life. He obviously doesn't want you in it. Otherwise it wouldn't have been a dirty little secret. Harsh, maybe but true, definitely.

The point is, duke, that of course you are upset, and you are also trying to deal with the shitty lying bastard by being noble and brave and putting everyone else first, sort of uber mature and understanding, but the fact is he is an utter shitbag and it would be much better for you to sever ties with him, let him have a relationship with ds separately, and leave it to woman 1 to decide if and when the dc should see each other.

Continuing to have a relationship with this worthless fuckhead is just rolling over and taking it.

It is absolutely mind-blowing that anyone would consider staying in a relationship like this.

Sorry duke didn't mean to upset you - we are on your side (well the vast majority of us are)

YOu see people telling you the facts as "pouring hurt on hurt", not because they are cruel but because YOU DONT WANT TO HEAR IT.

I am sorry to say this again, but you are being very selfish and very deluded.

If you cant dump this man then dont, but dont make excuses for your behaviour. You are doing the wrong thing by yourself and your son. Atleast admit and own that.

Then atleast then you wont be in a "the truth hurts more than the lies" situation that you are in now.

It is up to you to turn your back to the pain and hurt and walk away from this scum bag.

Or are you going to wait until he fathers child 3 and 4 behind your back?

call her "DSD" or "his little girl".

As for what is right by this toddler... that is best decided by her mother and father, and you, like any other step parent, need to accept their desires graciously and keep your beak out.

bin this fucking wanker
why wont you?
do you not deserve an honest man? Are you so shit that you have to timeshare?

come on MAN UP

he dipped his cock in some other woman at the same time as you and you FIGHT for him?
nob ends all

She's not you step-daughter.

She is his daughter. And nothing to do with you.

That's how he arranged it.

I stupidly believed that I could do it all on my own ad thought that by keeping him at arms length I would save myself getting hurt again. Ho ho (hollow laugh)

Well you're still doing that now - imagining you can organise things your way. Surely you must realise by now that's not ever going to be possible. All people are saying here is forget about trying to organise his deadbeat life, forget about organising Woman 1's life, and her DD's life. Just get on with organising your own!

Plenty of people here have give you bloody good straightforward advice on where you're going wrong. You can reject it, take on board the bits you agree with, ignore the lot of us - that's your prerogative. But don't accuse people of "making you cry"! FFS no-one here landed you in this mess.

Don't invite judgement here on AIBU. If you want to talk seriously about your problems and seek genuine solutions, rather than approval for your attempts to control and manipulate everything to your liking, get over to Relationships.

Duke, I'm sorry if I've upset you, I certainly didn't want to do that. It is shit all round, and Hully is right, "you are also trying to deal with the shitty lying bastard by being noble and brave and putting everyone else first, sort of uber mature and understanding" but that just leaves posters feeling very worried you'll end up getting terribly hurt. Please look after yourself and your DS first and foremost, let everyone else shift for themselves.

No OP you said yourself you don't want him spending time with her

As they are giving it a go, woman two is not keen on woman one and man spending time alone together.

That is because you can't trust him, why would you?

But you never will, he is a piece of shit.

The Christmas arrangements matter not, as i said he will do what he wants anyway just think about yourself and your son.

Nobody wants to kick you while you are down, i think majority of us are just pretty appalled and then are struggling to see where you think this will go, i don't think people do this to someone they love you can't blame any of us for your tears, he is at fault and you seem to be letting him get away with it.

And, with all due respect OP you calling him an arse on an anonymous forum is hardly going to change much, so really you are just rolling over.

Duke I don't think you deserve the bashing you got. You sound sane and good-hearted and reasonable. I rather admire you for it. Some of the posters here need to take a chill pill, read more carefully and read less of their own grievances into your posts.

Butbutbutbutbut....there is undeniably a lot of truth in what they are saying.

I understand that you want to give it a go with this man. I don't think I would, but you're right, you didn't come here for relationship advice, and no doubt you have your reasons which you don't really need to explain to us.

But all those posters telling you you're not doing a favour to your son or your boyfriend's other child by staying with him, are right. Be very clear on this. If you want to stay with him, I think it has to be for you, not because "it's better for the children". Parents often point to their children's interests as their ultimate motivation - often it is genuine, sometimes it's an excuse and mostly it's very difficult to disentangle real concern for the kids from the parents' own guilt and hangups and desires. I believe you when you say you truly want the best for the children, but it doesn't hurt to take a step back and get a bit of perspective. The kids are very young, and at this point understand very little of what's going on. I think this may be something to worry about later on, a few months or even years down the line.

I also understand you don't want to deprive your son from a relationship with his father. Good for you. I'm not sure I could be as generous in the same circumstances. But, again, make sure you do this for the right reasons. If he's a decent father, I don't see why he shouldn't have contact with his son. This, however, doesn't mean you have to stay together with him.

At this point, I would focus on sorting out your own future with this bloke. Never mind the daughter, never mind the future Christmas routine. Take it one step at a time. Make up your mind about the level of involvement you want to have with this man in your life. This is what needs to happen first before all the rest can fall into place.

I really don't understand this.

His contact weekend for his daughter falls the weekend before Christmas, so he sees her then. His contact weekend for his son falls the weekend after Christmas, so he sees him then. Both children are too young to understand Christmas anyway so won't miss him on the day itself. Woman 1 and woman 2 both get to spend Christmas Day with their childen/family/friends/whoever and he gets to spend it alone/with his parents.

Surely that all works out perfectly then?

As for what you do outside of Christmas, its clear neither woman should have a relationship with the scumbag and should do their best to facilitate the required contact with the children while moving on with their lives.

I hope both woman 1 and woman 2 go through the CSA to get the maintenance contribution their children deserve.

I think woman 1 and woman 2 should move on without man.

If woman 1 is convinced woman 2 is / was the mistress, woman 2 might as well just accept this has her PoV and move on.

Woman 2 needs a slap with a wet fish for even considering a future with man.

There is no reason the children need to have any relationship with each other.

Onceortwice -There is no reason the children need to have any relationship with each other

Well there is if only to stop the dreaded moment when they grow up and bring home the new boyfriend/girlfriend and discover they are dating their sibling. It happens (I've seen jeremy kyle)

Seriously though OP you have ignored a lot of questions and advice on here. Where does he go and what does he do when he's not having contact weekends with the kids? Where is living now?

They are valid questions, he lied before about living at his parents house. Can you really be sure he's not shacked up with someone else.

I'm really not saying this to be mean. I'm concerned for you. You deserve so much better than this

People are telling you you'll get hurt because it's so plain to see. I really don't think people are trying to be cruel, but it must be hard to read. However, I think reading the opinions of strangers who can only see the bare facts is worth more than people in your life just now, who might be scared to tell you what they really think, especially as you've decided to give it a go with this man.

He sounds remarkably like a 'man' that my sister was involved with for years. He lived with another woman (I actually think they were engaged) but told her a load of crap about how it was over, they were living together for convenience and so on. And she bought it all, for years and years. In fact, she believed it so much she saw the woman he lived with as the other woman and herself as his real girlfriend. All of her anger and hurt seemed to get directed at his fiance rather than him. He always had an excuse for special occasions, including visiting his dying mum who he was estranged from, seeing his daughter who he'd been estranged from (spot a pattern here) or if all else failed picking a huge argument with her at key moments (Christmas, birthdays, valentines) so he could get out of spending it with her.

This went on for years and years. Over 10 years later, my sister had a knock at her door and met a woman who asked her if she knew this bloke. Turned out he used to take women back to her house to shag whilst she was working away, and she guessed in the end what he was doing. He told them that she was mentally unstable, took drugs and abused alcohol and he looked after her house for her (it was obviously a woman's house). He had her keys because he said he wanted to decorate her house for her and make it all lovely, but instead he was shagging other women in her bed. He even gave her thrush which the other woman had had too :(

I really don't know why my sister put up with this man for so long, but she has the sort of personality where she likes to 'fix' people, or rather, men. She clearly has issues from our childhood and feeling abandoned and always wants to please men. It's served her no good at all, the harder she has tried to make things work, the more she gets shit on.

I understand that you want the best for you DS, but putting up with this behaviour is not that. I really hope you don't get hurt, but if (when) you do, please come back to mumsnet for advice.

'They dated for several years before we met but had been split for over a year before we got together '

But the DD was born 7 m after your DS???

(any one else confused?)

Very socharlotte.