Would you give up your seat on a crowded train

[akaemmafrost]

During rush hour, for a child, say between the ages of 5 and 11?

I would and have. It's just a discussion I was having today and I thought I would put it to MN.

A young child can sit on your lap but an older child is perfectly capable of standing or you can stand yourself while the child has the seat.

No, not unless they were struggling. I went to Paris with DS#2 (11) this summer and the metro was extremely crowded at times. I used it as a time to teach him how to stand to avoid getting thrown about.

As for too big for laps, my 16yr old 5'10" will perch on my knees from time to time if seats are limited. My 11 year old still sits on my lap if someone else needs his seat more than he does.

Ugh, except the bracketed bit.

No wonder people out in RL have problems when you look at this thread. Completely opposing views from people. We experienced this many years ago on the DW buses in Orlando. People offered their seats to parents carrying young children and instead of sitting and putting the child on their lap (as we would have done) they let the child sit.

I am old-school and was brought up to get up for adults. As someone said further down, we spent our whole youth and childhood standing up for adults only to find that now we are adults children get priority.

I have brought my children up the way I was brought up. My 5 yo sits on my lap on a crowded bus/train. My grown-up children leap up to offer seats to people who look like they need it, without being asked. My DH will do the same. I do not get up. Since having bowel surgery for cancer last year I am physically incapable of standing. But you wouldn't know that to look at me. You'd probably all be moaning about fit middle-aged women who don't need to sit down. Like someone else said earlier I also get panic attacks if I feel like I'm boxed in and can't see the door. I rarely travel on public transport for those reasons. But if I did and somebody asked me to give up my seat for their child they would get a firm No and all round.

Where did I say that I wouldn't stand for someone pregnant? My DS1 would too. However, I have had plenty of occasions where some rude idiot told my DS1 to "get up now and respect your elders".

Now if these people had a need for the seat (other than thinking that children are not equal human beings), and asked nicely (without having to justify themselves, I might add), then he would have no problem moving.

But to those 'entitled' adults that believe they are somehow more 'worthy' than a child, by dint of well, just being a bit older, and can't even ask nicely and just expect my DS1 to move? He would probably answer that he would show respect for them when they could be respectful to him and ask politely!

My DC's all hold open doors for others, that's basic manners. But deferring to adults just because they are younger? Nope.

In fact, I see adults that expect that as the rude ones!

As I have previously said, I always ask politely of a few people FIRST. I CAN'T sit him on my lap, I am also disabled with joint issues.

I need a seat too - but with both DS2 and I being disabled and in pain if we stand for too long, I would rather I was in pain than he was, so he gets the seat!

And if the bus is about to pull off, and nobody who I have politely asked to give up a seat will, I am left with no choice BUT to get more loud in my request, and address it to the whole bus. DS2 MUST be seated before the bus moves.

I got on a bus yesterday with a cat in a carrier and a nearly three year old and nobody offered me a seat. Had to put my poor distressed cat on the floor so I could hold on to my DD as had one of those bus drivers who seen to think they are in training for formula one :) If I had seen someone in my situation I would have given them my seat and I would give up my seat for a small child as they can't balance as well as I can.

I was brought up that adults always ensured their DC's comfort and safety on public transport before their own. Therefore I do the same with my own DC's.

I had my time of my dad seating me while standing myself, now I seat my DC that has disabilities before myself.

Kellyellie - now THAT situation, my DS1 would have got up for you/your DD without a second thought.

CouthyMowWearingOrange I very much agree with you expressing your need for both yourself and your DS2, and applaud it.

I would instantly give you my seat if I heard your request.

In this text form at least, I can say that to me at least, you do project a very loud and demanding voice. This is not a criticism, and I beg you please do not take it as such.

But you may well be expressing your need more loudly than you realise you are, which can in turn make people feel a little defensive and fearful ('gets their backs up'), and you may receive a more hostile reception than you deserve.

Miscommunication all around I sincerely believe.

Even if you approach 'politely' at first, the anticipation of a rising situation may be at the back of your mind, and may make even your polite attempt seem aggressive to the receiver.

Your personality in general may come across more strongly than you mean it to, and may intimidate others so that they react aggressively/rudely.

Please understand that I am not expressing any criticisim at all, just 'saying it how I see it', and seeking understanding.

I can understand that tbh. Thing is, you wouldn't believe how different I was 15 years ago before the birth of my DD (who also has SN's). I wouldn't have said boo to a goose, was bullied all through school, was quiet as a church mouse.

After dealing with first DD's SN's, then my own disabilities, then DS2's disabilities, then getting extra diagnoses of additional disabilities myself, I HAVE completely changed.

I wouldn't recognise my old, quiet self now. 14 years of dealing with disabilities and SN's can do that to a person. You get dog tired of being quiet and mouselike and never getting anybody's needs met.

So, I am who I am. I may seem strident in text, I am loud about getting what my DC's or I need, but only if politeness hasn't worked. Ok, I have a shorter fuse now, definitely, but when you have to cope with the assorted disabilities of 3 people on your own for so long, that happens.

All anybody can do is their best. If your impariment or need is not obvious, then that´s nobody´s fault. But really, if people actually looked UP from their phones once in a while and saw people struggling and clearly old, pregnant, arms full of kids and cats, then Im sure people would offer. But where I live, people are so OBLIVIOUS to the world about them. And who is ever gutsy enough to ask for a seat?

But 9 times out of ten, if your kid is too big to go on your knee, then it is big enough to stand and support it´s own weight for a bit. All these secret syndromes and diseases nowithstanding, of course....

I believe you CouthyMowWearingOrange, I absolutely do, because I have been through a similar process.

Its a bit like the swinging of a pendulum... you were 'too far' one way, and the temptation can be to swing 'too far' the other way in response.

I have been very surprised myself at how drastically and how sneakily my own personality has changed over the years, in response to different traumas.

Over time I have come to observe myself swinging back and forth between extremes, and now strive very much for moderation and the middle path.

I know exactly what you mean by it being a pendulum, and tbh after the year I have had, I probably am at the furthest stretch one way, I'm sure once I have my head fully around my THIRD disability diagnosis for myself in just under 9 years, I will probably find a more central path again.

But for now, I am dosed to the eyeballs on cocodamol and ibuprofen just to get through the basics every day. So trying to moderate how I come across to other people probably just isn't happening right now, as every drop of mental energy I possess is used up on being a Lone Parent with 3 different disabilities, looking after 4 DC's, two of whom also have multiple complex needs, with hardly any outside support.

Thus is life - nobody knows why someone else might seem a bit gruff or strident I guess.

YY to people being oblivious. It's hard to ask somebody for a seat if they are plugged into their iPod with both ears, not even noticing you ask politely if you or your DC with disabilities could please have the chair.

Fergus - why the sarcasm about 'secret syndromes and diseases'?

Are we meant to wear a sign, or happily proclaim that we have X, Y and Z? Or are we just as likely to want to keep our medical history to ourselves as you are, and expect that the 'norm' is that a fit healthy person is unlikely to ask somebody to give up their seat, because that would be Jeffing rude.

So 99% of the time, if someone asks you if they could possibly have the seat, why can't people just understand that it's more likely that they have a hidden disability than that they are swinging the lead?

There can't be that many people rude enough to think that they can get on a bus or train or tube and ask someone else to give up their seat without a reason.

So people who have to be brave enough to ask more than likely DO have a good reason to ask.

Why does WHAT the reason is actually matter? If they have a need to ask, why assume they are pulling a fast one before you assume that they have a need that they might not wish to disclose?

I would suggest that it is always best to approach the person who looks the most 'aware' of you.

Only because people may have very pressing reasons for trying to shut out the outside world, whether it be sensory issues, overload, fear, or any other personal reason. People with closed eyes and earphones in are expressing a need of their own in a way.

So for me personally, I would always express a need if I had one, and I would also try to target the person who seemed most receptive to that (eg. awake, alert, friendly), although I'll definitely agree this seems a rare species!

And there I go, forgetting my own humanity.

I'm very sorry for your troubles Couthy. I just took the time to read what you posted again, without skimming over the hard bits like I did the first time.

I'm really very sorry. You have my utmost respect for the struggles you face.

Last time we used the tube Dd (8) was thrown into confusion because a very kind man offered her his seat. She knows that DH and I expect her to stand for an adult to sit. Cue some agonized glances, until we thanked the man profusely and told her to sit down.

Thing is, there isn't TIME to ask more than 2/3 people right at the front of the bus before it pulls off. And DS2 MUST be sat down when it does move. And the more aware people are often nearer the back of the bus, where DS2 can't access due to the steps.

So I have less than 90 seconds to get him a seat in the first 3/4 rows of the bus, before the steps...not much margin for pleasantries!

Collie I would never not get up if asked for a seat, from what you say you live in an area where only you and tge old man who gave you his seat are polite people everyone else is rude because they didn't stand up for you. I think it's unlikely that you live amongst such rude people I think it is more likely they just needed to be asked politely to give up their seat.

I don't think people can complain about adults or children not giving up their seat if you don't ask them and there is no reason not to be polite, life is easier if you ask nicely for things! You don't need to go into a medical history you can just day "could I sit down I'm struggling to stand"

As a child I was told respect people no matter what their age, my mum believed that tge respect your elders lesson could lead to adults abusing kids because the kids had to blindly respect the adult.

do you live in a populated area couthy because where we are the first 3 years of a bus is generally populated by elderly and disabled...and therefore you wouldnt have much joy asking them to move; dont know what the answer is though

Couthy As someone with an invisible disability, I am empathetic to your situation and it is beyond awful when people refuse to get up and/or demand an explanation. However, if you were more pleasant (your own words were that there's no time for pleasantries) people may be more inclined to pay attention and listen. You can't expect people to just know. Also, in the same vein, perhaps one of those people plugged into their iPods has a disability too. I got a dirty look for not jumping up immediately for an older lady who had a walking stick. I was waiting to see if someone else got up (I assumed that not every seated member of the public had a disability) and failing that, I would have got up as I could see I could have probably managed standing up more than she could.

couthy - I'm sorry, but the only way forward for your son is for you to politely announce as you board that as your son is disabled you would very much appreciate it if someone could give him a seat. But, on a bus full of commuters, don't expect much - people are dragging themselves off to their jobs, looking forward to another day with their hateful boss, worrying about this, that and the other - looking out for every single person who gets on to check if they are in need - you're in cloudcuckooland if you really expect that.

And, if you were not brought up by parents who expected children to give their seats to an adult - this thread should show you that you are in the minority, for good reasons explained (respecting your elders primarily), and so you can now know that, in general, people will not automatically give up their seat for a child, and also don't expect this to happen to their own children.

(And as for the couple of people upthread who seemed to think that office workers don't get tired or could do with stretching their legs - if you think that any job can't be draining and exhausting, just because it's in an office - that's bullshit. In my time, and DH regularly these days, I have collapsed in a seat and fallen asleep past my stop on many many occasions, and the tubes and buses are full of people doing the same.)

But why should you blindly "respect your elders"? I think you should respect all people the same amount, yes very old people who need to sit down should be given a seat but why should I at 27 respect someone who is 50 more than someone who is 15 just because the 50 year old has been alive for longer than me?

The idea that some people have said that children should be invited into an adult conversation is disgusting to me, if you don't like the company of children then why have children? Kids have such unique perspectives on things I find it really interesting to have a child joining in when I talk with my family and friends. Yes they need to be told not to talk over people and not to shout but people need to learn this at some point so talking with their family is an ideal situation to teach them.