to think that a 3 year old girl shouldn't be in nappies

[missymarmite]

Quick background. I have 1 DS 9, we live with DP and his eldest DD 10, and we have his other two DD, 7 and 3, every weekend from thursday/friday to sunday.

The 3 year old had her birthday last month. I put my foot down and took the executive decision to try toilet training her. Every time before that, I mentioned it to DP he said it was up to his XW to sort it as the resident parent. So one day I just put her in some old knickers and let her run round outside in a dress. She got a bit upset when she wet herself, but over the next couple of weekends she began to get the hang of it. You can tell when she needs to go, because she kind of holds herself down there. At night and when we go out we put nappy pants on her and then she doesn't ask for the toilet, but in knickers she does.

DP told XW that she won't ask for the toilet when in nappy pants, but she has made no effort whatsoever to toilet train her, despite the fact that she only works part time and has every weekend child free, while both DP and I work full time and are exhausted most of the time, we still make the effort.

Am I BU to be frustrated and annoyed at this woman?

GenerationGap Sun 30-Sep-12 18:31:00
"Cheering and clapping is way over the top and too much pressure, that probably did not help his frustration when he had an accident. I firmly believe that any nt child over 30 months would succeed with my method within 2 weeks max if it was followed consistently, matter of factly with encouragement reward and praise."

Well, why dont you write a book then, and stop wasting your pearls of wisdom on us lazy feckless parents for free no less.

DD is 3 and 4 months, and no, she is not out of nappies, we have had 2 big moves in the last 4 months, with a long separation from her dad... and she was not ready before that, and then it was too close to a move to try and start her and just have set back after set back.

Do i wish she had been like her older brother who at 2 years and 8 months just randomly asked one day to go to the toilet, and then has been nappy free since, with not one single accident...ofc I do, am i going to force her no, we have nappy free time in the house and I try and encourage her to go to the toilet, and she will happily sit on the toilet, for ages, then get bored, run off and wee as she is playing, with no signs she is even aware she is doing so ..she will just carry on weeing without batting an eyelid, as if she is not even aware of what is happening..... so it is very very slow going with her, and she is at the moment back in nappies, until she shows some awareness of needing a wee and actually physically weeing.

''Oh you've missed it all orange, something about nappy companies, self esteem, lazy fuckers for parents and something about kids finding it degrading having their parents change their nappy.''

Meh I've been called lazy for using a dummy, ff, and using disposable nappies...

I'd shit a brick, actually I'd shit a whole bloody house if my ex husbands partner took it upon herself to potty train OUR child.

I'd then give that shit to GG to clear up, because she's so good at it.

Let me say this: potty training pressure has fucked up many a kid that was approaching the point of being ready. I know. My little boy is one of them :( . I wish to god I'd have listened to my gut rather then know it sulks like OP and GG.

The world is far more complicated than in the past. It is much harder to toilet train a child when there is shared care between seperated parents or a child is in childcare. Also it harder for a child to feel the wetness with disposible nappies and people are less tolerant of toilet accidents than in the past.

I think that people introduce toilet training too late. If you think about it, people potty train a puppy as soon as they bring it home. I think its a good idea to introduce a baby to the potty as soon as it can sit unsupported. I sat my dd on the potty at every nappy change. It was just toilet timing, but she grew up with the idea of the potty. I think it helped her to not be scared of it.

We tried knickers with dd at 24 months and she had 3 to 4 accidents a day. After 3 weeks we gave up, although she would say that she needed a wee she could only hold it for 2 seconds. The brain understood what to do, but there bladder muscles were not strong enough. I put her back into nappies and just carried on with the preparation.

At two years and seven months dd was dry both day and night. Children vary at the ages that they learn to walk and talk. Similarly they vary with the development of continence. DS was toilet trained at three years and 3 months, but he had very limited speech and had problems with gross motor skills needing child physio.

I think if a child can walk, talk and follow instructions then they are usually toilet trainable.

THe nursery trained DS, because I wasn't having much luck, he simply wasn't interested. Nursery staff said, we've got three other kids starting next week, just send him in with spare pants - and that worked as the kids were keen to compete with each other. They were all 3/3.5.

hmmthinkingaboutit, you seem lovely.

ReallyTired you sat your DC on the potty EVERY NAPPY CHANGE from the age they could sit? And they still TT at 2.7 and 3.3?

I am a total lazy fecker parent then...

This thread is about respecting different opinons on parenting matters. We have the right as parents to choose how we bring up our children. As mothers we know our children/families best.

Ds had special needs. He was under a child physio and next to speech until he had grommets at three and half. A child actually has to be able to walk and talk inorder to be TRUELY toilet trained. I didn't sit DS on the potty at all and he was terrified of the potty. I believe that his utter fear of the potty made toilet training later. I believe that fear of the potty is a big reason why many families find potty training difficult.

I choose to do things differently with dd. I find the boot camp approach to potty training as far to brutal. I wanted dd to learn gently.

I tried elimination communication and it didn't result in dd being trained earlier than average. However it prevented her from getting nappy rash because of the bare bottom time. I took a very gentle approach of three to four sits a day, rather doing full blown elimination communication. I also used nappies unlike someone doing hard core EC.

My definition of being toilet trained is 100% out of nappies both day and night, handling knickers independently, not needing any prompting to use the toilet and having no more than one accident month. Hardly any child is ready for that level of toilet responsibly before two years. DD certainly had some bladder control long before two, but I choose to discard nappies when she was reliable. Having a child in pants does not make them continent.

Elimination communication isn't toilet training, its a different way of managing your child's hygiene. It used to be really common in the UK and is still used around the world.

That's interesting really . My eldest two spent a lot of time out of nappies. In those days nappies were not nearly as efficient or comfortable as they are now.

When I am pt I switch to the cheapest value brands. It's much easier for children to make the connection between weeping and feeling uncomfortable.

But I wouldn't do that until they were showing signs.

I don't see myself as a patenting oracle but honestly, I am on my 5th pt dc.
Take it from me, it's really not worth stressing about. If its stressful, it's probably too soo.
A couple of weeks can make all the difference.

It doesn't matter how you approach potty training and all children bar special needs get there in the end. I believe the health and happiness of the child is important and if carers cannot agree on their approach to potty training then the child suffers.

If a child is going through a particularly defiant phase then attempting potty training is useless. It helps if the child can see the benefit in using the potty/ toilet. Two year olds are often more obstinate than 18 months or 3 year olds.

Whatever views are on potty training the child should never be a pawn in parental disagreements. It is form of child abuse to use a small child to score points of the other parent.

i do think naked time helps, that is something i have done wiht all of mine, purely because i think its nice for them to have bare bum time, it must feel so much nicer than wearing a nappy all the time, we have always just done it every evening after dinner before bed, they would just be nappyless for a bit, when little i laid them on a towel but obviously once htey could move it meant having to clear up accidents, but it was just half an hour or so everyday and we got a potty when ds1 was coming up to 18mths? and he was happy to play wiht it and then one day just used it and hence trained himself at 18mths. my next 3 were all later with training, but i still think the naked time helped so they were aware of wee/poo a bit more. dd is 21mths and is at the 'look of suprise' face when she wees, i just say oh you are having a wee and clean it up, its not a big deal, she will tell me when she is pooing or had a poo so is aware of that but not of wee yet, she will say wee wee but it alway suprises her when she starts to wee so i can tell she has no warning or control over it yet but i figure being aware of what it is and where it comes out must help!

i do think of have found with mine that when they are ready to do it, it is a quick process, ie only a few days with mine, even with ds1 at 18mhts literally two days and he then didnt have accidents. if they are not ready there will be a lot more accidents and some children get upset by this, ds2 did and so i put him back in nappies, ditto ds4, i tried because they seemed interested adn we had some good weather (always helps!) but as soon as it became clear they werent ready we just went back into nappies without a fuss and waited a bit.

the only issue ihave which is with ds4 is the fact that he hates using toilets that are not ours! ie he is happy to use the toilet at hoem and will now thankfully use the toilet at school but when we are out etc he will hold on all day, just recently i have managed to persuade him he can wee against a tree/bush etc, he wouldnt even do that! but we went on holiday last week and he really didnt want to use the toilet int he lodge we stayed in, he did eventually for wees, but wouldnt poo, after holding it for days he pooed in a nappy at night time, we just cleaned him up and said not to worry but i do need him to be able to poo whne out/away ditto wee without holding it in for hours, if he thinks he can hold on till he gets home then he will even going 8hrs or more! i have no idea why he is like this and we have tried everything! still he has a bladder of steel!

people are PT later. that's just a fact.

lots of reasons for it - no hard evidence to say it is better though (unlike things like sleeping position, where is good quality research to back up modern practice)

also, someone implied upthread that disposables caused less nappy rash than cloth - again no evidence, but anecdotally wholly contrary to my experience (though i don't use terrys, but coolababy and motherease).

and i don't get horror at accidents - children once trained have accidents when e.g. starting nursery or school - that's normal and accepted. Why is it so awful if they have a few during training? The main difference to my mind of soiling pants vs nappies (though, single-boosted Coolababy poppers might actually feel alot like pants to the wearer anyway) is it is immediately noticeable and will get changed sooner than a nappy (much sooner!). We as adults might find it shameful - we have learned to feel that. toddlers haven't.

bearing in mind the vast array of things toddlers might object to (think Broken Banana) if a parent thinks it worth continuing whilst their child is upset that's really their choice too.

and still, people attached to the Freudian notion that PT might in some way be damaging - i don't know of any evidence that this is the case more than any other aspect of parenting.

Egadz! This is why I've found PT so stressful - I've been so worried about being judged :(

DD is 2.8 and dry, but we've had a nightmare re poos and she is currently taking senna to help with a terrible witholding habit. She still refuses to go near a toilet or potty for poos and so we have to use a nappy for that.

I reckon I probably worried too much about what others thought and started the process too early.

FWIW I cloth nappied her for 2 years, so definitely NOT lazy

YABU in that it is obviously not your place to decide to ?toilet train? someone else?s child and it will be very confusing and maybe do more harm than good to confuse the poor little soul like this I do agree with your sentiments about nappies.

As an Early Years Practitioner of long standing I have to say that I am dismayed at the number of 3 and 4 year old children we care for who are still wearing nappies and pooing and weeing in them without even telling anyone that they have.

Before the ?rules? were changed, and it became discrimantory to do so, most Early Years establishments only accepted children over 2.5 (unless the child had special needs of course) if out of nappies and oddly practically all the children WERE toilet trained barring the odd accident.

What has happened in the last 8 years or so that children now cannot achieve continence till so much later when they always used to?

This is causing problems for the children, it delays their independence, other children notice and comment on the fact that little Jimmy/Susan is sitting in a nappy filled with poo, schools are now getting children starting reception class still not continent www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-16906442, there is a huge increase in nappies going into landfill sites and the nappy manufacturers are rubbing their hands with glee at all the extra money they?re getting. They now put photos on nappy packs of much older children and it has become normalised for older children to be wearing nappies.

In days gone by when all children wore terry nappies children were not running around in nappies at 3 or 4.

I'm not saying it's always easy but I have so many parents who don't seem to understand that there will probably be a period of around 2 weeks of 'accidents' before the child is reliably dry so they give up very quickly.

Not sure it's some big conspiracy by the nappy companies as some people have suggested.

I wonder if it's more to do with the fact that it's more acceptable now for parents to listen to their children, ie BF on demand instead of 3 hr schedule, BLW instead of dictating how much puree they eat and when. These were all recommended by HCPs in past generations and up until quite recently. Maybe parents now are just more willing to look for signs that their children are ready.

No other child ever commented on my DD1 still being in nappies at 3.6 and as for hindering her independence she was 3.6 years old, she wasn't about to go out and get a job was she? I'm not sure how wearing a nappy was holding her back.

Not read whole thread ( 27 pages???) but honestly op.

Of course YABU. Up to the primary carer. My DD wasn't ready until 3 yo despite a few attempts. I only know this as I was with her nearly all the time. I got lots of comments, DS was ready at 2.4 so the fact she's a girl makes not a blind bit of difference either IMO. They are ready when they are ready.

Leave well alone.

I think there were plenty of accidents in the past. I remember my brother having accidents in the 1970s.

People's expectations about mess are far higher than the past. Not all children can potty train in a week and some find it harder than others.

I think the present implementation of the disablity discrimination act is unfair on nurseries. Its understandable if a child with a medical condtion or speech and language difficulties or physical difficultes has problems training. However a small minority of parents have used it as an excuse not to toilet train their children.

I feel that NT three year olds should only be allowed to attend school nursery in nappies if their parents have actually tried to get help from either the children's centre or the health visitor three months before the start date.

Unfortunately ReallyTired a lot of children aren't actually diagnosed until well after nursery age. That's why the DDA has to cover all children afaik - because at nursery age it's impossible to know whether the child may yet be diagnosed with something which explains the toilet training problem. My oldest DS who I talked about upthread was diagnosed with Asperger's at 8.5, in context of that his toilet training problems (specifically the fact that he didn't care about wetting or soiling himself) make much more sense.

Binthere..... Over here the playschool don't take them unless they're trained. My ds isn't and therefore cant start playschool. You only started seeing the untrained kiss when they were entitled by law to attend your playschool! Up til then they simply didn't enter your radar as they had to be kept home.

My 3 year old DS is still in nappies.

It's not down to lazy parenting.

I have had his nappies off completely over the summer holidays. He managed to 'get' weeing in the potty, but after 8 weeks of training was still soiling himself. I'm still unsure if he can do it and is being defiant, or whether he just can't do it. He says no when i try to encourage him to poo on the potty. I have also tried cold turkey with him at about 2 and he didn't get wees or poos.

My DD was clean and dry at 2.5 YRS

OP YABU it's not your decision. You are probably confusing the child as you are doing things differently to her mum. Also, you may cause problems between your DH and his ex. I would be livid at you if I were his ex.

Just make your DH change the nappies.

"Before the ?rules? were changed, and it became discrimantory to do so, most Early Years establishments only accepted children over 2.5 (unless the child had special needs of course) if out of nappies and oddly practically all the children WERE toilet trained barring the odd accident. "

If you didn't accept children who were not potty trained then all your class would be trained - parents wouldn't send untrained kids if they were banned, surely?! Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick.

SummerRain.....We're based in a very small village and always knew which children were old enough to start so it wasn't that some children didn't come because they were still in nappies, they were practically all toilet trained by 2.5.

Are you in England? because if so it is unlawful for your playschool to refuse entry because your son is still in nappies.

EauRouge.....I'm afraid that the parents of most of the children we have in nappies are not 'parents who listen more to their children' sadly usually quite the opposite.
Other children will always comment on their peers who are sitting in a nappy of poo - they don't like the smell. Of course we don't allow children to be unkind to children about it.
Because the children in nappies seem oblivious it is often only when one of the staff or other children notice the smell that we know the child needs changing - not a pleasant task for staff to change a 4 year-old's nappy when they've been sitting in it for a while.

We do notice a definate increase in a child's self-esteem, independence and self-confidence when they have stopped wearing nappies, they all like to say they are a 'big boy/girl' in relation to lots of things including toiletting.

Undiagnosed SEN at Early years is a very valid point - A good setting should spot problems early on and toiletting difficulties would be part of the whole picture we build of each child when looking out for signs a child may have additional needs.
This is why the DDA should indeed cover this issue so all children have access to Early Years education, can be diagnosed earlier and get the help they need at the earliest opportunity.
However the majority of children gaining continence later these days do not have special needs.

yes, that's how I'm reading it - you only saw the potty-trained children, it doesn't mean that ALL children were potty trained by that age.

Can someone (those who are astonished that a 2.9 yr old is still in nappies, ideally) please explain to me how I persuade a child who hates sitting on the potty or the toilet, and who can hold in poos for so long that she gets constipated (and wees for several hours), how to stop this? I would genuinely like to know and am clearly being a bit dim about it. Treats / rewards have not worked thus far.

Oh, and by the way, she's not sitting around in her own poo, she always tells me when she's done one and she has the dirty nappy removed asap, with either a clean nappy, or nappy-off time following. And it certainly doesn't hinder her independence one bit, not sure what's meant by that? She's not keen on having to stop playing to have her nappy changed, but she's even less keen to stop playing and sit on the potty! Even with toys or books.

OP, a better approach might be to clearly point out the signs that you feel mean your DSD is ready to your DP and ask him to discuss with his XW, and take it from there. We don't have her side to the story so perhaps there are other things that are going on that you are unaware of that mean the child's own mother is delaying potty-training?