To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

I don't have a problem with saying I'm a feminist. I'd be happy to say I was an equalist if things were equal, but they are not. Not yet anyway.

I do hope this thread results in a moriatum on the biweekly 'nasty feminists being nasty' Aibu thread for a bit :)

"I'd be happy to say I was an equalist if things were equal, but they are not."

So you think being an Equalist means thinking that things are already equal?

I think I see where the confusion has come from then.

I know that for me personally, identifying as an Equalist means wanting things to be equal. And that's the same impression I've got from the others on this thread self identifying as Equalist.

EBL, ah ok, excuse me I'm not that knowledgeable about radical feminism as I just identify as a feminist in general. So, radical feminists believe that in certain situations women deserve special consideration if they are to achieve equality of access/opportunity?

I can see the logic behind that. I guess the problem comes when we define the ways in which men and women are different.

Did you read Lise Elliot's book on gender differences? She argued that if we accept that there is a difference between boys and girls in terms of spatial awareness/verbal skills, then the answer is to give them extra training in the areas in which they lack. But then I guess that depends on whether or not you think those differences exist. It's difficult to know for sure because of the socialisation we go through.

It would make perfect sense to be an Equalist if you're starting from a level playing field, where men and women had equal opportunity. But if you put on your national hat on here and look at the facts, there is still a pay gap, fewer women than men are in positions of power (both in business and in government), statistically more women than men are primary childcarers and have lost their momentum in careers - and workplaces are still constructed around a model that encourages one person per post doing long hours. Look at it from a global perspective and more women are living in poverty than men, have fewer reproductive rights than men and worse or no access at all to contraception. Feminism seeks to redress that imbalance so that there is eventually a truly level playing field right across the board, for all women and all men - and not just the few who had better life choices generally, because of their other privileges such as money, education and gender.

Here are a couple of links referencing girls' achievement and the myths surrounding it

Mythbusters from the DFES 2009

The Billericay School Project

Analysing educational achievement is never just about gender though - a myriad of other factors determine a student's aspirations and achievements.

Men suffer these things against women too though?
There are job roles where men are not seen as good / important .
Men suffer from domestic abuse and it is even harder to get support for them.

Same with homosexuals and children who suffer abuse/work issues etc..

I dont see why anyone would favour women when it should be about everyones rights surely?
Thats what I do not get.

It is hard to now what are real differences and what are socialised. But there afre clearly reproductive differences and men do tend to be taller and have more upper body strength than women. Being taller and having greater upper body strength doesnt make too much difference in every day life. But it matters a lot in elite sports.

"It would make perfect sense to be an Equalist if you're starting from a level playing field, where men and women had equal opportunity."

Not really. Wanting to word towards equality would be a little unnecessary if thing were already equal, surely?

None of that stuff is actually completely true Eats. You have forgotten to put SOME. Some women. Therein lies the essential feminist conundrum. Feminists claim to speak for women as a group, but they really shouldn't, because they don't.

I am no second class citizen, nor are any of the women I know.

Work not word.

Empusa, I'm sorry to be pedantic, but as you are now our resident Equalist () can you tell me the ways in which you think things aren't currently equal?

Other movements focus on specific groups and nobody seems to have an issue with that? So movements trying to improve things for disabled people dont get asked who they dont help able bodied people as well.

Nobody is saying men dont suffer any issues. But feminism is about making things better for women and girls.

Empusa I hadn't seen your definition of Equalism when I wrote my post. I have heard Equalism defined as something totally different by others who espouse it. Their definition of it is based on the premise that we currently have equality.

"Unless they happen to be transgendered. Then radical feminists are a bit less compassionate"

Radical feminists dont think you can change sex. You can have cosmetic surgery and take hormones, but you cant actually change sex.

Being a women gets me out of loads of crap "man" jobs like if the a huge spider, then DP has to get rid of it even though he's just as shit scared as me and he mows the lawn and goes in the loft, there some of his man jobs

Hmm didn't read the whole thread and from reading back at the last few comments I could be barking up the complete wrong tree so feel free to ignore me

empusa that's just my personal opinion, not a theory or anything!

I mean that if things were generally equal I would identify as an equalist, in that I think everyone should have the same access to everything. As things stand, I don't think women do have the same access to everything that men do and therefore women need more help to get to the point where they have the same access as men (this may mean redoing lots of things and not simply mean that women should emulate men).

Yes women can get pregnant, give birth and breast feed and men can't. However, I am not convinced that men having most of the money and power in the world is a fair trade off for our ability to have children.

Loads of ways.
Pay between men and women. The fact that women are expected to do housework. That rape isn't treated as seriously as it should be. That certain jobs are harder to get into if you are a certain sex (works both ways). That society treats boy and girls differently. That disabled people have less access to jobs than able bodied. That racism still exists. That there are still attacks on people just because they are different.

It's pretty much endless unfortunately :(

sigmund - you raise a good point and one I forgot to mention. When we talk about women, we are talking about women as a political class. So it is a generalism.

"I have heard Equalism defined as something totally different by others who espouse it. Their definition of it is based on the premise that we currently have equality"

It definitely shows how a label can be used differently doesn't it? I mean I've heard people who claim to be feminists say that it is about shifting the power balance the other way and wanting a matriachy.

empusa - I guess my view is that in all the situations you outline, women still have a worse deal than men.

EBL, I see, I think that maybe we have different interpretations of feminism, because I do see it as also encompassing the problems that men face.

Probably though, because I see that the majority of problems that men face come from patriarchy itself. From anti-gay sentiment towards those who don't fit in with the macho ideal to the obligation to die in wars that are a result of the emphasis that patriarchy places on hierarchy.

Nervous, I guess it depends if you like huge spiders and climbing up into the loft - I certainly do!

Messy - I think some men will benefit from feminism as well. But I see women as the focus not men.

See I have been treated as a 2nd class citizen. When I got preggers I out earned dh. Within less than a year he out earned me substantially because he was promoted after we had ds and I was demoted whilst I was on mat leave.

You could just say I'm crap at my job and dh is ace at his and that is the difference. Or perhaps it's because I'm a woman who had a baby and now I'm unreliable and baby brained but dh is now a responsible family man. It could also all be a coincidence as well.

I think it's brilliant if women go through their lives never experiencing worse treatment than men but I would hope they would have compassion for other women who don't experience their good fortune.

But should you be generalizing? You must have come across threads, loads of them, where generalizing is jumped on..

i.e. Boys are really boisterous.

This would elicit many responses along the lines of 'generalizing much?' or 'I have 3 DS's and NONE of them behave like that' etc.

So, why is generalizing within feminism acceptable?

Eats Sort of, it's kind of cumulative really.

The more discriminated groups you are a part of the worse you have it. In a lot of cases the woman is worse off just because she's started off with a handicap.

But if you compared a white woman with a gay black disabled man from a poor background, the man would most likely be worse off.

And there are some situations where the balance is the other way, eg. men working in childcare. A white person in a predominantly black area.

Just because the bigger picture puts them in an advantageous position, it doesn't necessarily mean they have an advantage IYSWIM?