To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

Actually apart from today I spend very little time on mumsnet these days. I am part of a local feminist group and we organise a range of stuff - womens only events, campaign on local issues. Have also offered help with fundraising recently to local rape crisis group - which they are taking me up on.

And I dont think I have ever written to the Guardian! Should I be??

I see women helping women, I see women providing support and encouragement and love. I see condemnation of rape, I see condemnation of violence. I see women revelling in being able to express themselves

And yet, call this feminism, which it truely is, and it gets a massive rejection

I don't call that feminism, I call that compassion.

My grandmother opened a school and taught in it.

Freudian religion would support some of these things though, like seeing a female Dr, education for women etc.

Nailak are you talking to me? Because I certainly wasn't implying that you were too stupid to think for yourself! In fact I think I was in agreement with you! Where did I say that?

nailak just because I believe that men are as natural parents as women, doesn't mean that you're wrong in believing otherwise.

There's a whole debate to be had about the extent to which modern women infantalise children for exactly the reason that it gives them value. Value that was taken away by a patriarchial society. That's a theoretical debate and not a particularly comfortable one.

Yet you see me having a contrary opinion as stifling you and patronising you. I really don't see what my opinion on something has to do with you defining yourself as a feminist. I don't agree with Marxism feminism but I don't let it get to me. I find it challenges my thought processes and sometimes makes me question long held beliefs.

Feminism isn't to blame for women's insecurities. My opinions are just that, I'm just a poster on a message board.

I also try and put my radical feminism into practice in every day life. So I am way less judgemental of women I meet than I used to be. I try to make sure if mixing with women and men that men dont get away with talking over quietier women, i challenge sexist remarks, etc. I have been a radfem for about 4-5 months and have already put all these changes, plus the stuff mentioned above into practice. Some radfems do an enormous amount of work - they just dont talk about it generally.

*Nailak "What I am saying is at the moment women are expected to adapt men's norms when they go in to the work place, and that is an oppression on them. And from what I can see of feminism people just don't accept the differences like this between men and women so aren't acting to change the way workplaces operate. "

You obviously don't know many female doctors! Working part-time, flexibly, around family, etc is becoming the norm. The majority of medical students are now female - law students as well. Change is already well underway.

I try to make sure if mixing with women and men that men dont get away with talking over quietier women, i challenge sexist remarks, etc

But again, I don't see that as a feminist thing...surely it's just basic human behaviour?

If I were mixing with women and men and a gobby woman started talking over a quieter man, I would politely tell her to zip because someone else is talking...equally I would do the same in reverse.

I also challenge sexist remarks made from either gender and so does my DH.

Messy no I was talking to blistory! Sorry!

I agree with worra, anyone would do that.

If a normal sensible woman identifies as a feminist then women's rights will continue to be on the agenda. But if those rights are only ever seen to be the remit of the hairy armpit section, then women's rights will be seen as a marginal thing. And soon marginalised.

I agree. I don't think that some women realise the damage they do.

The thing that really annoys me is the way that you get patronised. We all have the same information, but we are free to interpret it differently and I get fed up with being told that I have taken a view because I don't realise there is an alternative. YES I DO REALISE IT- I just happen to have rejected it.
An example is that women change their names on marriage because they don't realise they can keep their own. I am not stupid, of course I know!-I just wanted to change it to make a family with my DH and DCs rather than my brothers. I don't expect everyone to do the same.

The majority of medical students are now female - law students as well. Change is already well underway.

Exactly-you wonder what planet some people live on! I now worry more about boys underachieving.

exoticfruits just because you know a lot of 'lovely men' it doesn't mean that life is like that for everyone. Unfortunately it's not about individuals, it's about society and power. Patriarchy is bad for men too.

This gets to the nub of what I dislike. I hate anything where you lose sight of the individual-life is all about the individual. Individuals make up society.

"How come people are perfectly happy to say they are religious, or spiritual despite the fact that this can mean a myriad of different things? Just because we all have a different take on what Feminism might mean to us, doesn't mean we have to reject the word."

Actually if you see my previous posts then you'll see I do the same in different areas of my life.

I don't want to be associated with the more unusual views some Wiccans hold, so I say I'm Pagan.
I don't want to be associated with the elitism of some Goths, so I say I'm Alternative.
I don't want to be associated with the more extreme views of some Feminism, so I call myself an Equalist.

As for you complaining about it being semantics, well of course it is. If you hadn't noticed there are plenty of people arguing that working towards equality needs a feminism label. As someone said earlier, words have power. Semantics isn't some cop out, the use of words can make a big difference.

"I now worry more about boys underachieving."

Me too. I also worry that the blame for boys underachievement (to whatever scale it is) is placed on the doorstep of girls' educational successes.

Damn, hit post too soon.

"Why don't we all just reject the word WOMAN, since it quite clearly means such a variety of things to so many different female humans."

The difference with a word like woman is that it's used to describe something tangible, whereas the word feminist is used to describe an idea.

"I'm afraid this is NOT about rejecting the label. It's about [...]"

Ah of course, we're back to being told what we really think. Because, of course, you know our thoughts better than we do.

This is an excellent thread. 18 pages and no flaming and lots of cool discourse although I'm also surprised about the feminist bashing. Where are all these Andrea Dworkin extremists? I haven't encountered ANY on mumsnet.
I'm a feminist, out and proud.
Why wouldn't I be?

Actually, in many UK areas now it is girls who are under-achieving in education, especially those who live in a culture that worships celebrity, or relationships with celebrities - and places inordinate importance on a young girl's 'look' to determine her success in life, rather than her intelligence or her interpersonal skills.

Empusa: "I don't want to be associated with the more extreme views of some Feminism, so I call myself an Equalist."

After 19 pages of very enjoyable debate, your sentence summed it up perfectly.

I'm an equalist too.

Empusa, I don't think Badgerina was telling you what YOU thought, just what SHE thought.

Of course you are free to call yourself whatever you want, but it's also understandable that feminists should want you to understand that they believe that Feminism is Equalism.

Empusa made some excellent posts

wickerman - I think I am one of those Andrea Dworkin extremists aka Radical Feminist.

Beth have you got figures for girls underachieving more than boys in those areas? Because its totally opposed to what is constantly on the news

ebl all those who constantly reference all the dreadful rad fems who have made their lives utterly miserable by discussing armpits on t'internet, will cinveniently forget about you, me thinks.