To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

[Birdsgottafly]

"Also I'm of a generation where I haven't seen much obvious sexism"

It is all around you, aimed at both genders

[squeakytoy]

As Worra said, the most vocal of feminists are the hardline radical ones that I see on here. They have done more to put me off feminist issues in the two years I have posted here than a lifetime of working in a male orientated industry has.

[MrDobalina]

my views are mostly rad-fem, but I shave my armpits AND my legs; i wear makeup and frocks sometimes

I also like being walked home and bought flowers--i think there is a massive misunderstanding of feminism here

[Yourefired]

This is a very complicated question. For me, here goes. I was highly educated (think RG incl post grad quals) got v. good career earning lots in male dominated sector. This took me away from familial base. Got DH, less qualified but in higher earning sector. Career rat run followed. Then two children. DH away on business, I go part time to cope. Then his career escalates, mine stalled (turned down promote twice), enter elderly parents stage left and ill DB stage right, care falls to me and my wonderful SIL. Me give up work and enter school gate hell. It's dominated with women who are good at relating to other women, mainly through if i'm blunt not being careerists in male dominated sectors, and I feel like fish out of water (my bad i know). My children suffer, my DH gets it taken out on him and I have to rebuild everything, which I've done. I used to be a feminist, went on rallies and everything, now I pick my clothes carefully and do lunch. What a sad waste of my education and ability. Go figure, I'd have been as well off pissing about at school and honing my queen bee talents. Discuss.

[WorraLiberty]

MrDobalina It's hard to say 'there's a massive misunderstanding of feminism here'

And the reason for that is I have seen so many threads now where 'rad fems' have literally insulted free thinking women by insisting they are not intelligent enough to know their own minds when it comes to simple things like choosing to remove their own body hair.

I've witnessed these people positively telling these free thinking women that they are letting the 'sisterhood' down and that they can't possibly be thinking for themselves...only appeasing 'the menz'

That's a fucking insult to insist any woman who doesn't share their hard line opinion/view can't think for herself.

It's no different imo to having a man telling you how to think, what to wear and what to do with your own body.

It's disgraceful.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Yourefired - So sorry to hear you are feeling so frustrated with your life. It sounds like you need a challenge and to be mixing with others with similar interests. Could you study, work part time, do some challenging volunteering?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Worra - Feminists talking about a feminist analysis of why women shave hair, wear make up, etc is I think reasonable. What is not reasonable is telling women they have to stop doing these kind of things. And the radical feminists I admire are clear that this is not a feminist approach.

[WorraLiberty]

Well I can only tell you about the threads I've read here because I simply refuse to wind myself up by reading the FWR board.

And what I've read here from the extremists isn't pretty imo.

That I think is what puts people off wearing a label.

I am very fair minded though and I will say that MN has taught me to look at a lot of things from a different perspective and question a few things I never really saw as 'unfair'.

I'm glad that the 'normal' posters far outweigh the extremists and the poison and misery they can often spread.

I'm a Mum of 3 boys and honestly they are probably more equal in their thinking when it comes to men and women than I am....and that makes me smile and beam with pride.

[TheCraicDealer]

To me, sexism is someone saying or thinking that I cannot do something simply because I have a vagina. As i have never personally been insulted with this argument (and I can't read minds) I would think that I am in the very lucky position to have not witnessed much in the way of overt sexism. That's just my and my immediate circle of friends' experience. However- we're not at the children/main care giver stage yet, which is when I anticipate things might change for some of us.

The radfems on the feminism boards often tend to try to look for offence where none is meant, doesn't make that section very inviting for a novice.

[TodaysAGoodDay]

The word 'feminist' makes me think women expect to be more than men. I don't want to be special. I don't want men to be special. I want everyone to be treated equally.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

TodaysAGoodDay - If women and men were treated totally equally, then there would be no legal protection for example for women breastfeeding in public.

I think I now what you mean by being treated equally and I agree. But there are basic biological differences and they do need to be recognised and catered for.

[WorraLiberty]

Exactly Todays

I expect anyone male or female to hold a door open for me as I would for them.

I expect anyone male or female to to listen to what I have to say with an open mind and not with a preconception about what sex I am.

I expect anyone male or female to accept I am my own person and I make my own decisions based on what's right for me and not what sex I am.

That's basic common sense and equality. I don't need to label it as feminism or anything else.

[nailak]

yourefired why do you think you need paid employment to use your skills and your education?

do you feel the work you do now in "traditionally womens roles" is less valuable then the work you did in your male dominated career?

TO me feminism should be about supporting the choices women make, and personally that would include my choice to cover, be a SAHM, consider work in traditionally female roles etc but on here it seems like my choices are an oppression on me or something.

I cant identify with the way feminism is portrayed on these boards, yet in certain situations i have turned to the feminist boards for help and clarification on issues.

[squeakytoy]

"If women and men were treated totally equally, then there would be no legal protection for example for women breastfeeding in public."

But men cannot, and never will, be able to breastfeed, so I dont really see how that is a feminist issue.

[nailak]

and I think in a way some feminists still hold up men as a yardstick, saying we should have the same rights as men etc, but we are not men, buy saying that we are still making man the default.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

nailak - Of course being a SAHM should be valued. But the poster is a SAHM and is massively frustrated with her life. So something clearly needs to change for her.

[Yourefired]

Eatbrains. I agree. Sorry to sound so angry. I have two DDs and they appear to be similar to me. It concerns me that their opportunies will become as curtailed as mine. Either persue a career, up until you have caring responibilities, or have children and a stable home life. I am trying to steer them towards careers that you can "do by the hour", such as locum pharmacist, speech therapist etc. hardly feminism, just realistic. What a waste. And this I feel is the problem. Regardless of what qualifications or motivation you have, someone still needs to clean the toilet. The high flying women I know juggle this by two routes. The first is a househusband (a rare breed), or secondly and much more common by employing another woman. These women (and I know I've employed them) do not have tenure, do not have unions, do not have sick pay, do not have annual leave etc, etc. what a mess. (off to choose a new lipstick).

[akaemmafrost]

It's a spectrum. If you believe in equality for all then imo you are a feminist but you will be at a different place in the spectrum than say, a Radical Feminist. I do think to a certain extent you can take what you want from feminism. It's only one way.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

squeaky - Yes of course men can not breastfeed, which is why simply saying men and women should be treated equally misses the point. There are some basic biological differences between women and men.

[akaemmafrost]

It's not only one way.

I am a Feminist.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

nailak - I agree women and men are different and men should not be the yardstick women are judged against. I am a radical feminist so agree with what you are saying. But different branches of feminism think different things.

[squeakytoy]

Well I do agree with you there. Men and women will never be 100% equal, because biologically they are not the same. I do think that both sexes should be treated equally where the ability to act equally is there. A man doing the same job as a woman at the same level, with the same amount of experience should not be on more money, then again, neither should a woman be on more money than the man.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

YoureFired - No need to apolgise for being angry. And yes it is a mess. And of course in a true society free from sexism, women and men would be as likely to be employed as cleaners - and with better working conditions.

[nailak]

maybe what needs to change is her perception of her life? maybe she needs to focus on all the wonderful things she is doing, rather then compare herself to what a man would do?

have you ever thought that the women you employ might be happy to have a job that fits around their caring roles? and that ism ore important to them then the rest of it.

[nailak]

i have got all my ideas about feminism from mums net so excuse me if i am a bit here and there.