To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

The majority of people aren't rejecting Feminism, just the label. Big difference

So that's what this is all about then is it? Semantics. Please.

How come people are perfectly happy to say they are religious, or spiritual despite the fact that this can mean a myriad of different things? Just because we all have a different take on what Feminism might mean to us, doesn't mean we have to reject the word.

Why don't we all just reject the word WOMAN, since it quite clearly means such a variety of things to so many different female humans.

I'm afraid this is NOT about rejecting the label. It's about wanting to dissociate from the popular perception of the "dyke" Feminist which is a construct perpetuated by misogynists in order to undermine the cause - the shaven-headed, dungaree wearing, FAT (like Andrea Dworkin -how dare she?) man-hating bitch that we're all terrified of being mistaken for.

Freudian YES! Absolutely yes.

Sadly though, my recent experience of feminism has been on these boards, and there are far more than "just one or two" who are extreme in their views.

The feminist stance on porn is one that I do not have a black or white view on for example, and because of that I have been called plenty of names, even on unrelated threads I have had my opinions thrown at me in the form of derision and insults.

It is for reasons such as that, that myself and others dont even bother to participate in some threads now.

great post Bagerina

How many people here in real life refuse to label themselves as feminist ?

Let's face it, you can't use the excuse of the radical MNers on here as most folk haven't heard of MN.

What's the worst that could happen ? Some one at works assumes you must be some extreme man hating woman ? Surely they know you and that that is not the case ? Surely 'coming out' as a feminist would start to redress the balance and help with progress ?

Or are we all just scared of being judged ? It's much easier to conform and deny what you truly are.

i didn't mean your post about my post :)

wish i could put it so intelligently

I am more than happy to "label" myself as a woman who is not a stereotypical feminist, and prefer the roles within my marriage to be traditional in many aspects. I am no downtrodden martyr either as anyone who knows me in real life would testify, but I am sure that many of my personal views would have me classed as a 1950's throwback.

I do believe that there will always be a gender divide, because biologically men and women ARE different.

My view on equality are that everyone should be able to choose what they want to do without gender being taken into account, so long as the ability is there. Equal pay for equal roles is certainly something I would fight for.

I see feminism on here every day.

Threads about not infantalising men
Threads about leaving violent men
Threads about domestic work falling to women
Threads about women broken by the life they're leading
Threads about rape
Threads about self worth

I see women helping women, I see women providing support and encouragement and love. I see condemnation of rape, I see condemnation of violence. I see women revelling in being able to express themselves.

And yet, call this feminism, which it truely is, and it gets a massive rejection.

Can't begin to describe how sad that makes me

I don't think feminists are bashing sahms or any of that.

When I say behave like men, I mean the way men interact and women do are generally different and the set up of many organisations favours men and expects the interactions to be like the way men interact, think firm handshake, power dressing etc.

Badgerina, I agree. I think that the fact so many people want to disassociate themselves from the word for the reasons you cite is in itself part of the problem.

The ease with which some people associate the whole of feminism with its more extreme elements and the abundance of negative stereotypes available for women who cross the invisible line shows how much it's still needed.

"I see women helping women, I see women providing support and encouragement and love. I see condemnation of rape, I see condemnation of violence. I see women revelling in being able to express themselves."

Oh I see that Blistory, but I also see women withdrawing support if the woman in need will not bow down to pressure to admit something was more than it was, and I see them leaving the threads, wishing they had never started it. I see condemnation of rape when no rape was committed, a fact that the poster is adamant in her own mind of, but no matter, she is told that she HAS been raped, and I see women being slated for being able to express themselves if they so much as indicate that they have watched any porn or do not object to their partners watching it.

THAT is the nasty side of extreme/radical feminism that I have witness on these boards many times.

Squeaky if you were free to make those choices then that's great. If however any of those choices were expected of you, or were as a result of lack of choice, then it was no choice at all.

I might think I've chosen to be a SAHM but really if it's because society expects me to be the more natural parent, because my partner felt his masculinity was threatened by being a SAHD, because his career would be less affected by mine or because he earns more than me, then the reality, even if I enjoy being a SAHM, is that it wasn't really my choice

Back in the day I was a woman's libber
I've said already I'm a feminist in that I agree in equality for women.
Simple, no?
It's all the other crap that pisses me off.
The FWR boards are all about women discussing theory and dissing anybody that doesn't agree.
And then saying if it wasn't for feminism and the suffragettes etc. our rights as women wouldn't exist.
Well yes, I totally agree, the suffragettes died for the vote, 'woman's lib' changed peoples lives in the 70's with new laws protecting us.
But pontificating on a forum isn't going to change anything either.
The radicals have got to get out there and do something, you know, like go to Sudan and protest, or run a Woman's refuge eg, just take action like the suffragettes did. Not arguing about body hair and PIV sex and other nonsense.
Otherwise I cba listening.
Actions speak louder than words as has been proved in the past.

Course it was your choice, you can choose to go against what society expects, that it doesnt matter if your husbands masculinity is threatened, that money is not everything etc.

See, I don't see that as extreme or radical.

The fact is that legally, sexual intercourse without consent is rape. That means needing to get active consent. It doesn't really matter what you or I think, the legal position is that unless a man obtains consent, he is deemed to be guilty of rape.

We need much better education of young boys and girls to deal with this issue. And better understanding of women who have experienced it.

Nailak you should read Deborah Tannen's book "You just don't understand". I think you'll love it.

With respect to your last paragraph: If we accept that women and men interact differently (be it from nature or socialisation - another debate!) do you think it would be a good thing for workplace culture to adapt to accommodate women's styles or that women should adapt to men's norms as they are the ones "interloping" as it were?

The latter would put them at a distinct disadvantage as they are not used to it.

nailak it's not a choice, and until men are recognised to be as natural at parenting as women, until parental leave is genuinely equal for both parties, until better childcare is provided, until childcare is better valued, until we earn the same as men, until we realise that men have always had it all and women never have, it will never be a choice made in freedom.

Cant speak for other types of feminists. But one of teh tenets of radical feminism is that you should do work and put it into practice, it is not just a theory. And lots of radfems do this in real life

my hubby earns more than me - it made sense for me to be the SAHM -

I made the choice based on him earning more than me - he only earned more than me because he is older and has worked for longer -

not really a feminist issue....

What I am saying is at the moment women are expected to adapt men's norms when they go in to the work place, and that is an oppression on them. And from what I can see of feminism people just don't accept the differences like this between men and women so aren't acting to change the way workplaces operate.

Agree eats

Can't speak for all liberal feminists but I believe that the small stuff adds up and it's important to deal with that on a day to day basis. Chipping away and calling out sexism as and when you come across it is important.

I don't just fanny around spouting opinions on MN. I run my Company in line with my feminist principles, I treat everyone I come across in line with my feminist principles. I cannot separate them from who I am.

Worrying about the small stuff doesn't stop me from acting on the big stuff too.

So how are you putting your principles into practice EBL?
And all the other radfems on here.
I'm really interested in what you're doing for the cause apart from Mumsnetting and writing to the Guardian.

What if I think women have it all as they can stay at home with kids? And that there are things more valuable then finances?

what if I believe that due to carrying the baby, giving birth, breast feeding, the instinct to not roll on your baby, etc men are as not natural carers for young babies and kids as women? In general.

It's posts like yours that put me of feminism and the reason why I wouldn't call myself a feminist.

Basically women are to stupid to think for themselves what they want and what they like.

My grandmother was born at the end of the 19th century and she was a strong woman- she didn't put up with any of the rubbish that people think all women put up with at that time.

So did she vote? Own any property? Or even have a decent education.

She voted as soon as women got the vote. She didn't own property but neither did her father, her husband or her brothers-they were not in that class of society. She didn't have a decent education but neither did her father and she had a better on than my grandfather who had to leave school at 12years of age to contribute to the family income. It isn't as if any of the men that she knew had better opportunities.

She did the best with what she had. When she started work as a shop girl the manager said 'you girl-close the door' and she ignored him completely. When he asked if she had heard she said that she had no idea that he was talking to her-her name was Miss X. He apologised and always addressed her politely from then on. Had she closed the door he would always have thought 'you girl' was acceptable. She was certainly the brains behind getting my grandfather into business and she worked with him-it was their business and not his. Unfortunately she died before they could own a joint property- but my grandfather managed it after her death. She made sure that her DDs did get a decent education.

feminist issues touch our lives everyday. if it were not for the feminist movement our lives would be very different from the very big issues such as voting to having women on the radio/tv to being able to see a women doctor to discuss womens problems this is all down to the feminist movement it was not men who were going to make our lives better or religion it was women coming together and fighting for it