to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

[BartiiMus]

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

I'm sorry for what you happened to you feminine You should be able to make a sandwich for a friend without worrying about being raped or sexually assaulted.

I'm ecstatic with your response as far as the fact that your opinion is the same whether it was a man/ woman or man/ man interaction. I still believe you are wrong in your belief that the bloke picking up the phone to lie to his colleague to get into the bedroom isn't a form of harassment. so, very astute.

But it doesn't look like you are going to change your mind on that, so I took crumbs where I could from the fact that at least you weren't expecting the woman to have a different response from a male colleague in the same position. I didn't think there wasn't anything else to discuss. You feel that lying to a colleague to get into their bedroom is appropriate behavior in a work context, and I don't. Discussion over, I thought?

I know she didn't doctrine, I posed a hypothetical situation, much like most posts on this thread

madwomanintheattic

My bad, apologies.

No worries

Hurray madwoman and handbag! Agree entirely.

I'm interested to know what "precautions" you can take against a man who may turn out to be a rapist, who you voluntarily let into your house. Having a knife up your sleeve? What?
I'll assume that was directed to me, since I mentioned a business meeting in my house.

Firstly although I had not met the person previously I had spoken to him on the phone and I know many people in his company. If I didn't know his background I would have arranged a meeting in the local Starbucks.

Secondly and most importantly when meeting someone it's important to have an assertive attitude that shows you are in control of the situation and of your own space. Anyone approaching more closely than is needed for a brief handshake will be rebuffed appropriately. Watch how the Queen does it!

In my own house I have security cameras covering the front door and hallway, and another prominently located in a corner of the office recording every movement.

And as a backstop I have a panic button on the desk connected to the house alarm which makes a very loud noise internally and externally.

So far, in four years of working this way, I have found the first two precautions alone to be entirely adequate.

Blimey. Those are serious precautions.

Are you really suggesting that all women should get panic buttons and CCTV in their houses?

I can see why you have them if your home is also a place of work where you are obliged to regularly admit strangers. But how practical do you think they would be as a way of life for most women, bearing in mind that we are all more likely to be raped by a man we know and trust, than one we've never met before?

Also women don't get raped because they aren't assertive enough to stop it. They get raped because men choose to rape them and use their greater strength and weight to force themselves inside a woman who doesn't want them there. Lots of rapists get turned on by assertive victims, they enjoy putting them "in their place".

Bloody hell, Sallyingforth, I'll have to think twice before letting the gasman in
in future seeing as we don't have CCTV in place

"Are you really suggesting that all women should get panic buttons and CCTV in their houses?"

No, I'm not suggesting that for one minute. It's up to anyone to decide how to protect themselves, but I was asked what I do.

Incidentally those aren't all anti-rape precautions. The cameras and alarms are general anti-crime measures to protect the house and contents in an area where there are a lot of burglaries. I don't want my house broken into. The only anti-rape measure really is the panic button in the office.

But I am convinced that having a clear no-nonsense attitude and presentation is one way of reducing sexual harassment. Fortunately I have yet to be disabused of that.

Again I have no experience of sexual violence from 'men I know and trust'. I have read though of repeated violence both sexual and non-sexual from partners, and I am very sure that the very first intimation of such an attack would be the last because it would be the end of the relationship.

I don't want to prolong this discussion BTW as I have already wasted spent far too much time on MN today.

Actually for many women, "the first intimation" they get that a man they know and trust is going to rape them, is er, when he rapes them.

So they don't have time to end the relationship in a sensible and orderly way - they're too busy being raped, you see.

The reason they are alone with him in the first place, is because they trust him and it hasn't even crossed their mind that he's a rapist.

Yes Fastidia that's the bit I have trouble with. It obviously does happen, but I can't get a handle on this business of a man suddenly changing from being a loving, caring partner to a rapist, without any indication at all of a change of attitude on the way.
Like I said, I don't deny that it happens - I just don't understand how it can happen.

Well I think with the loving caring partner thing, there probably is a lot of warning - sudden onset of extreme entitlement is not very likely, he's probably behaved in lots of entitled ways in other contexts but women are socialised not to see men's entitled behaviour as abusive. I don't know if you've seen the thread which discusses this article, but the woman in the article has a slight tone of desperate smiley brightness which is steadfastly refusing to recognise the abusiveness of her husband's behaviour. That's pretty normal IME - women making a joke over how men are abusive and just pretending it's men being incompetent or hopeless. As if they could rule the world if they were as incompetent and hopeless as some women pretend they are.

But for people like friends, colleagues, neighbours etc., there is usually enough distance for their dramatic sense of entitlement not to be predictable until you are actually alone with them in a scenario which they have decided means they have the right to penetrate you and you have no right to refuse them. You quite often don't know colleagues, friends etc., all that well, so there's no reason for them to have given any signals of being rapey.

Yes I understand. Food for thought.