to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

[BartiiMus]

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

modifiedmum Tue 18-Sep-12 15:29:57
Really?? am i reading this right??? someone just said he leaned in for a kiss, he didn't ask, therefore thats not right wtf

I'm the "lean in " chap and no, I don't think that's being said?

MyNameIsInigoMontoya Tue 18-Sep-12 15:14:41
THAT is why it is everyone's responsibility, especially in a work situation where there are rules for this purpose, to make sure the other person actually feels the same, either by them saying so or else indicating their feelings in some reasonably clear way (which could just mean leaning in for example), before they go for unwanted physical contact (especially late at night, in private, where this could be very intimidating).

I think that means if the kissee doesn't lean towards you, that ain't consent...

Yep that's about the jjist if it modified

Unless the woman cracks open the Nescafe in which case its fine because its more social and not as misconstrued as iniviting someone in to your room for something you could have given at the door, apparently.

It was not entirely a work setting. At the time this happened both parties concerned were "off duty", not working.

As mentioned earlier, I often worked away and stayed in hotels, and my working day finished once we got to the hotel bar.

Yuk. This is grim.

I spent years travelling the world staying in hotels with an all male team. Occasionally one would call me after hours for a work related reason and I would stagger to the hotel room door in my pj's to hand over whatever key or bit of kit they needed, or answer a question. The last thing that would have been appropriate is for any of them to go in for the lunge and a snog - and we would usually have spent hours laughing and socializing in the bar or restaurant.

Creepy, grim, and horrifyingly inappropriate.

Approach me in a social context of you're interested (a few did, but I wasn't). Don't lie to catch me unawares in my private space. Nasty, nasty.

I am absolutely with whoever suggested the woman who mentioned it to a colleague a few days was sounding out the response as she was uneasy and was considering reporting it. Whether she half laughed or not.

I was actually sexually attacked in a bar at work. so the social thing is something of a misnomer - FYI, if you are all just socializing and having a laugh, it doesn't mean it's appropriate for a group of blokes to hold you still, half remove your shirt and grope your tits. Even if they have been drinking and you could theoretically decide to reciprocate. Or even one bloke.

I didn't report it. I left them in no doubt I could have, though.

I'm 41. This man used a work lie to get into her room. Yuk.

"I don't think she should have let him in.

He might have been a chancer, he might have been much worse!"

So she should have assumed he might have been a rapist then?

I'm interested to know what "precautions" you can take against a man who may turn out to be a rapist, who you voluntarily let into your house. Having a knife up your sleeve? What?

seeker
"No. All we know for sure is that a man lied in order to go to a woman's hotel room late at night and then tried to kiss her."

You missed the bit where she invited him up to her room.

To. Get. A password.

Not a shag. Not a snog. Not an unreciprocated and unwanted advance.

You're pretty quiet on the 'what if it was a man' front, BBJ?

Is it just a woman that would have to put up and shut up in this instance? If it was a bloke saying 'alright mate, come and get the password' and he'd been lunged at, how would you categorize that?

Is it different if it's a woman? We're supposed to want to be seen as desirable bits of totty on work trips? Not professionals? Ready for a shag, ever willing?

Any bloke that tried that trick on another man would have been crucified.

But a woman is supposed to smile, titter a bit, be flattered that he wanted her, and say no thank you, politely?

Fuck that. He was out of line.

Not a sacking offense, but he needs to be reminded that the women he works with are professionals. Not potential shags on a conference.

And the women need to be told they don't need to take this crap. It is not flattering. It is a sign that you are not respected as a coworker, you are seen as a useful bit of interest after a beer.

Whoever posted those rape myths was bang on the money. He lied to get into her bedroom. When can that ever be okay?

'lunged at' you missed out the bit where he must have obviously been slavering aswell

This thread is totally bonkers!

Don't care if he was slavering or not tbh. He shouldn't have been there at all. Unless he needed a password token. Anything else, imvho, is missing the point entirely.

Women don't have to be pathetically grateful if a man finds us attractive. It's ok to be offended and upset if a man's attraction is out of turn and inappropriate.

What if it was a man?

Go on, I'll take up Seeker's cry. Someone, for the love of god, have a go at answering why it would deffo be okay for a bloke to invite himself up to another blokes room on a work pretext, and then 'move in' for a snog. (for those who don't like lunge). Any sort of inappropriate move towards my face is pretty grim, however fast or smooth, tbh. But I'll refrain from lunge if it makes folk stabby.

Of course its ok to be offended, but calling this harassment is a massive exaggeration imo.

My feeling on this would be the same if had been a man btw

And nothing has made me stabby, although I am mildly flummoxed that noone has answered my question about would have been ok what he did if the socially acceptable euphimisn (?) For 'I like you' had been used by the lady.

madwomanintheattic

"You're pretty quiet on the 'what if it was a man' front, BBJ?"

Why would my response be any different if it where a man?

Ata do you mean if the woman had said "come to my room for a coffee?"

But the man didn't say "can I come to your room for a coffee?"

The. Two. Aren't. Parallel.

That's ok, then BBJ. As long as you aren't discriminating in your head, all good. There just seemed to be a tone on the thread suggesting that any woman who didn't take such an unwanted advance in good spirit (and be grateful and say no politely) would be a raving frother. As long as you would expect a chap to say no thank you and no harm done and close the door on the lovelorn liar that had approached him in his bedroom, all good. (in your world).

I missed your question, cross. It obv wasn't repeated as often as seekers. [grin\

Can you recap it? At what point would the theoretical 'I like you' have been said. In the bar? No need to be liar, then, eh? Quick shufty outside and up to the room. Still well tacky and open to criticisms about professionalism and work relationships. (blee) and not great when you fetch up to the next conference and he's leering over dorothy from accts.

In the room? He lied to access her bedroom. If they were genuinely connected and likely to get jiggy, it would have been obvious long before. He lied to get into her bedroom. He used her professional capacity as an in. For her to refuse and put the phone down would have put her professionalism into question. So he deliberately used her professional status to get access to try it on.

It's just nasty, really.

Oh sorry you've misunderstood

I mean if the conversation had gone as it did, and when she invited him in for the code rather than just pass it through the door, and offered him a brew because she wanted one so was just being friendly, he then took that for this socially accepted 'come on'. Going off what some are saying him going in for a kiss in that situation would be ok.

My earlier point that her inviting him in instead of just passing it to him at the door was that maybe he mistook the invit to be her version of 'coffee' is pretty valid i think.

Yes, that's it isn't it.

If you would be considered a bit impolite or uncooperative because you won't give this bloke the code he needs to maybe get on with a bit of work (some people are mad nocturnal workaholics), then it's actually quite a big deal to say "No, sorry, it's really late and I'm going to bed right now, I really don't want to spend 10 minutes booting up my machine and I'd rather you didn't come to my room in case you see me as a potential fuck rather than an equal colleague, so can you come back to me in the morning about this please."

It would cause raised eyebrows.

YY madwoman esp. Last paragraph.

Ata I don't believe she offered him a brew.

madwomanintheattic

"That's ok, then BBJ. As long as you aren't discriminating in your head, all good."

Why engage me in a thread at all if you don't want an answer?

When I was 21 I made a sandwich for a male friend, that had come over.

He took this to mean I was up for a shag!

chasing me up the hall , he tried to force me in to my room/ on to my bed.

I have been very cautious since then ....20 odd years ago.

Feminine I'm sorry that happened to you and that man was wholly wrong.

I would think he should be maintaining professional boundaries. And I think the fact that the whole thing was based on a lie is rather a critical point. He was obviously planning on going up to her room - he didn't even need the code - there was no other reason for him to call her in her hotel room. He called her and wangled an invite (because as fastidious said, her professionalism and team work would have called into question otherwise).

He was behaving in a predatory manner when he picked up the phone. He didn't need the token. He wanted to get into her bedroom, and see how far he could get.

Had he really needed a code, and she had really needed a hot beverage, is escaping into the realms of mills and boon. He didn't need a token. He lied to her to get into her room. From the minute he decided to call her and lie (after she had retired to her bed for the night), he was bang smack out of order.

On the supposition that he was really a nice bloke who one minute was involved in a professional interaction with a colleague, and the next was having hot steamy coffee over the laptop, it still would be a stretch to imagine how he could switch from being in 'work' mode, to 'ooo, let's see where I get.' if he was any sort of professional, he would recognize that making a move in those circumstances wouldn't be appropriate, excuse himself quickly for the night, and make his move at a more appropriate time and place. Notwithstanding my previous comments about workplace relationships.

It's all contextual. From the minute he picked up the phone to lie to his colleague to get into her bedroom in the night, he was in the wrong. Unequivocally.

It says 'I am going to use your dedication to your job to see how far I can get'. Grim.

Eh? You answered, I responded. That's engagement, non?

If she invited him up to her room all seductive like, why did she push him away when he tried to kiss her?

If she invited him up to her room all seductive like, and he only wanted to use the Internet, why did he try to kiss her?

If she wanted to get this man alone in a hotel room, why did she wait for him to ring her to use the Internet? How did she know he would do this?

Why did the man ring her? He could have rung another colleague or reception. He could have waited until morning.

madwomanintheattic

I may have missinterpreted but you don't seem happy with my response.