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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

614 replies

BartiiMus · 14/09/2012 10:22

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

OP posts:
wherearemyGOLDsocks · 15/09/2012 20:02

I don't see how from what has been written by the OP anyone can say whether it was definitely one way or the other.

If it happened to me, as described, I wouldn't feel sexually harassed or feel the need to report it. But otoh if someone working under me came to me with a complaint that this had happened then I would absolutely take it seriously and tbh I'd be glad that I would be able to pass it on to others to make a decision about it.

AuntieMaggie · 15/09/2012 20:28

RavenAK - completely agree with you, its the way he did it that gives me the creeps and even if I fancied him would seem a bit disrespectful as from what we know it seems to me that he thought he was in for more a kiss.

DowagersHump · 15/09/2012 20:34

Quite RavenAK. I am really struggling to get why some people are finding that so hard to understand.

squeakytoy · 15/09/2012 20:41

"from what we know it seems to me that he thought he was in for more a kiss"

no it most certainly does not!

BoneyBackJefferson · 15/09/2012 20:43

ravenAK
"Also, we don't know how he phrased the original request"

We don't know alot of things because the OP wasn't actually there and the whole thread is in effect based on gossip.

handbagCrab · 15/09/2012 20:48

atacareer that's not nice love. (posted a long time ago)

Nice guy: i cant sleep, do you fancy a coffee? (implied wink)
Not nice guy: I need to check my work email, can I use your Internet (can't see implied wink myself)

I've been in a very similar situation several times (I must be irresistible). The nice one was a guy through a work type conference event told me he fancied me. No inappropriate touching, no lying, he didn't try and kiss me. It was just nice and I accepted it graciously. It was nice not to feel bad and guilty because some bloke at work had forced his attentions onto me.

atacareercrossroads · 15/09/2012 21:20

Sorry love I've got absolutely no idea what I've said that's not nice Hmm

ravenAK · 15/09/2012 21:49

Exactly handbagCrab.

If you are at a work-related event, I don't think that it's necessarily at all an awful thing to make a friendly pass at someone after hours (obvious caveats re: power imbalances, taking advantage of pissed people etc).

But it should be clearly signposted as 'we are off duty, I'd like to get to know you better' whether that be with a view to a kiss, one night stand, or looking back on it fondly as you celebrate your Golden Anniversary with your dgc.

Using a dishonest work pretext to literally get your foot in the door is appallingly inappropriate.

FastidiaBlueberry · 17/09/2012 20:27

"Can I ask the feminists, is there any particular reason why every thread that you pile onto, you have to raise the subject of rape?"

Oh dear Squeakytoy, can you really not see the connection between having a man coming on to you after midnight in your hotel room and the ever-present threat of rape that women live with? Are you really one of those naieve women who wouldn't even have the possibility flash across her mind in that situation?

This is EXACTLY the sort of situation where rape apologists say: "What did she expect? What did she think he wanted at that time of night?" if a man actually goes ahead and rapes a woman.

And yet insane feminists are raising the subject of the possibility of rape, which must have flashed across her mind and must have made her feel at the very least, extremely uncomfortable. Which of course means they're manhaters who think all men are potential rapists.

So either you think all men are potential rapists and you're an hysterical man-hater or you think that they're not and if you didn't anticipate the possibility of rape, you asked for it when it happens.

It's such a clever Catch 22 isn't it? One that enables men to get away with rape all the time and not be blamed for it.

"he tried to kiss her... KISS.... nothing else... he didnt make her feel threatened, he didnt terrify her, and she didnt deem it worthy of reporting because she found it funny... " Actually you don't know if he didn't make her feel threatened or terrify her. If she had felt terrified or threatened, she may well have felt ashamed, guilty or silly about those feelings, along with relief that the feelings turned out to be unnecessary and unjustified. Women are constantly told that their feelings are not valid and she would have been accused of over-reacting, being a "shrinking violet" if she admitted to them. Oh my, she thinks all men are rapists or something, hysterical silly woman... the only way for most women to deal with it with dignity, is to join in with the minimising to prove that they're not silly shrinking violets.

And women of course, are shrinking violets for admitting the possibility of rape in this situation, but men are justified in feeling absolutely terrified, poor dears, because one day a woman might accuse them of sexually harassing her if they er, sexually harass her. Men are allowed to be terribly afraid of this very rare event without being called shrinking violets, but women being afraid of rape or sexual assault when 25% of them will experience it, are stupid wimps.

You couldn't make it up.

Sallyingforth · 17/09/2012 22:39

"Can I ask the feminists, is there any particular reason why every thread that you pile onto, you have to raise the subject of rape?"

A good question, and I'm afraid Fastidia that I find your answer entirely unconvincing.

The woman in question is said to have found the incident funny, and she of all people must know how she felt. Would you rather that she felt threatened with rape, just to satisfy your own prejudice?

Rape is a horrid, horrid offence, often diminished by men. Unfortunately it also it is also diminished by women who seek to find it where it doesn't exist.

squeakytoy · 17/09/2012 22:42

Thankyou Sallying, you said it all for me.

MorrisZapp · 17/09/2012 22:49

What sally said.

Without hearing from the protagonists in this story, we can't possibly judge what happened.

seeker · 17/09/2012 22:53

No. But we can judge the scenario as presented to us. Man went to woman's hotel bedroom on a false pretext and tried to kiss her.

On what planet is that an acceptable thing to do?

FastidiaBlueberry · 17/09/2012 23:01

Well we'll have to disagree on that won't we Sally.

One in four women get raped or sexually assaulted.

We are brought up from an early age to be aware of the threat of rape.

Most women would have at the back of their mind, the consciousness of the threat of rape. Most of us have had near misses throughout our teens and adulthood and our spidey sense is very finely attuned to the threat. In the situation the OP describes, it's unlikely that that woman wouldn't have had at least a sense of wariness about what was going on.

But if you want to dismiss it, that's your choice of course.

Redbindy · 17/09/2012 23:01

Summary of thread so far:
Person reports hearsay, lots of other people go off on one because of a situation nobody knows the truth about.

mellen · 17/09/2012 23:09

Its not like that though is it seeker?
Its 'Man sets up pretext, invited to womans hotel bedroom, tries to kiss her'

seeker · 17/09/2012 23:22

Ah. So it's back to being the woman's fault.

I think that is why the subject of rape came up. Women are frequently expected to take responsibility for men's behaviour as well as their own. Can't you see it does a disservice to men as well as women to be saying "ah, well, she should have realised he might be lying- men always like to try it on, don't they? She should have been mor careful"

squeakytoy · 17/09/2012 23:25

And again, very few people are saying it is ANYONES "fault".

It was a misunderstanding and he immediately backed off when he realised that she didnt want to kiss him.

Sallyingforth · 17/09/2012 23:27

In the situation the OP describes, it's unlikely that that woman wouldn't have had at least a sense of wariness about what was going on.

Very likely she was wary, and good for her. It's natural to be wary in an unfamiliar place late at night. She would have been foolish not to be careful.

But she was comfortable enough to invite the man to her room, to reject his attempt at a kiss, and to laugh about it later. No need for anyone else to interfere and start calling rape where none existed.

Crying wolf never did any good.

Redbindy · 17/09/2012 23:27

Fast Blue
A person who was not there has said that the woman invited a man to her bedroom around midnight. After being allegedly refused a kiss he made his excuses and left. I've been in some dodgy situations but this isn't actually up there with a load of drunken blokes coming onto you at the bus stop is it?

FastidiaBlueberry · 17/09/2012 23:30

It depends on your experience Red.

The law on harassment is quite clear: if the person in question DOES feel it's on a par with the bus stop blokes, then it's harassment, if she doesn't, it isn't.

The onus is on you not to harass your colleagues, it's not on your colleagues not to feel harassed by you.

Quite rightly IMO

FastidiaBlueberry · 17/09/2012 23:33

Somebody at a bus stop might feel safer knowing that it's a public place, all the bantering is good-humoured and light-hearted and the bus is going to be there in a minute, whereas in a private hotel room with no witnesses, might feel more dangerous.

Or it might be far more intimidating at the bus stop. I just don't think you can lay hard and fast rules about what people are allowed to be intimidated by. That's why the onus is on the potential intimidator, not the intimidatee, as it were.

Redbindy · 17/09/2012 23:33

Fast Blue - you are quite right. But we are not in a position to know the feelings of the woman in the bedroom. Nor is the OP. This thread may as well be about a novel.

FastidiaBlueberry · 17/09/2012 23:34

Well yes, but that's mumsnet for ya

Redbindy · 17/09/2012 23:34

I will make post 500!!!