To think that these T-shirts are disgusting?

[GreenD]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19560284

Whatever you may think of her, this is hardly in good taste is it? It just makes the unions look bad to have this sort of thing on sale at their conference. Can you imagine the CBI having T-shirts looking forward to the deaths of Tony Benn, or Shirley Williams, on sale at their conference?

Labour increased the divide between rich and poor,threw money at people to create the illusion of wealth spending money that the country just didn't have, deregulated the banking system so that bankers could get massively rich through a credit bubble which will see millions of ordinary people crippled by debt for the rest of their lives. I could go on, but really in the long term labour have not made life any easier for ordinary people in this country.

People who think the recession we are in just happened to start under the labour government, but wasn't actually their fault, are either deluded stupid or both.

I'm neither.
The tories have increased the divide. The Tories blame Labour because they don't want to blame their cohorts.
People who believe anything other than that are deluded, stupid or both.

We were running at 3% deficit before the GLOBAL financial disaster.

Which is the amount recommended by the IMF to keep the money markets flowing.

Public sector pensions are still affordable. But keep telling yourselves that they are the reason we are in debt. I am sure it helps Tories sleep at night.

Furry you comments are not only incorrect but insulting. I suggest you research the financial disaster a bit rather than spewing misinformation created for political purposes.

Rowanhart

We were running at 3% deficit before the GLOBAL financial disaster.

So you do agree that Labour were deliberately spending more than they took in taxes to buy votes.

Which is the amount recommended by the IMF to keep the money markets flowing.

The IMF recommends that all countries run a large deficit? Since when?

Public sector pensions are still affordable. But keep telling yourselves that they are the reason we are in debt. I am sure it helps Tories sleep at night.

In what sense are they 'affordable'? That sounds like a Weasel Word, much like 'fairness'. At the moment there is a deficit, and that deficit is being paid for by private sector workers who can't afford pensions of their own.

Fairness is a weasel word? You're definitely a Tory.

I am a private sector worker and I can afford a pension on my below average salary. labour did more for the ordinary working person in this country than the Tories ever have.

redlac

Fairness is a weasel word? You're definitely a Tory.

No, I'm not. You're definitely a partisan hack though.

I am a private sector worker and I can afford a pension on my below average salary.

Sure you are, and sure you can.

labour did more for the ordinary working person in this country than the Tories ever have.

What, like price them out of the housing market and strip their access to the jobs market by flooding it with cheap migrant labour?

I'm a private sector worker on a below average salary who pays 8% into my pension and my employer matches plus 2%

So I get like 18% paid into pension monthly

So let's not talk shit about private sector workers not being able to afford pensions. You can if you are careful and responsible with money

Sigh. Trying to explain how international monetary markets work to smeone who doesnt want to believe it. But here we go.

In order for the market to survive there has to be a certain amount of borrowing and lending between nations and banks. The IMF recommend that this is between 1.5% and 3% for first world countries.

For much of Labour's term we ran at the lower end of that scale. The capital expenditure programme of rebuilding collapsing schools and investing in new infrastructure in the fire service, as well as other, what I consider, worthwhile causes (like increasing the number of working class kids in Further Ed) pushed it towards the 3% mark, but it was very much affordable debt. A bit like a mortage for the majority of us. We are all living In debt but it is affordable and because we do we help keep the banking system going.

In terms of public sector pensions they affordable in that they are costing the taxpayer less in terms of GDP. www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/public-sector-strike

Now your comment about private sector workers funding public sector. Well many public sector workers (teachers, nurses, soldiers, etc) are paid far less than there private sector counterparts. A nurse in the private sector would earn more and would be able to pay their own pension. As would a teacher.

What your comment smacks of is childish "why should you have what I don't?!" Why not fight for better pensions for the private sector as the real ticking time bomb in this country is how few people are going to have a decent pension and what that means for society? But instead you try and destroy the pensions of those who do. Short sighted economic illiteracy!

I won't even dignify the weasel comment.

have you read any of my posts? where the fuck do you get that I'm not what I say I am? Can you see my pay packet from where you are sitting on that big stool of judgement?

I think whats priced ordinary people out of the house market is greed by house builders who only build detached 4/5/6 bedroom houses that only a certain sector can buy, on pockets of land around towns and inflating the prices round about them.

This is my personal opinion.

FYI I vote for the Greens not Labour

Rowanhart, no they're not you're actually one of the most deluded posters I have come across for a while. I suspect you may be one of those people who thinks economics is a science, rather than made up as the economists go along ignoring fundamental factors that don't fit in neatly with their equations.

The labour government led this country into financial ruin by promoting high levels of both public and private debt all the time spouting bullshit about no more boom or bust. They did this so peoplewould think they were rich and vote for them. The money needs to be paid back at some point. This is what happened, but you just choose to ignore it should you so wish.

The wealth divide did keep growing and the majority of employment growth was in the Public sector and fundamentally unsustainable I the long term without a strong private sector. They also subsidised wages in the private sector through tax credits, which allows companies to carrion paying low wages and creates a culture of benefits dependency and an inflexible workforce.

The private sector was fuelled by people buying things on credit, it gets to the point where people just don't need more stuff and have today back the money they borrowed, again this is unsustainable, which is why there is now no money left to support a bloated public sector.

The only thing the labour party excel at is blaming others for the problems they created. They spent the entire 13 years they were in government blaming the Tories for their short comings, and then as soon as they were booted out it was the new governments fault. I'm not a Tory btw, although I do agree we need to cutback I don't agree with where a lot of the cuts have been made.

Deluded? If you believe the deficit crisis is causes by overspending rather than the banking crisis it's not me who's deluded.

Actually not going to engage in this further as the insults are starting to come through and I can't be bothered to engage with such silliness.

I think my degree in PPE may indicate how I view economics.

I think the fact bowering has increased while fucking over the people is terrible. So borrowing is up, waiting lists are up, people are dying due to this government beig determined to make people who are not healthy or able to work work. Good Schools are crumbling thanks to them stopping the maintenance works but at the same time funding surplus places at naice 'free' schools.

All the time they cut taxes for the richest people, fuck over single parents with the stupid loophole in the child benefit beig stopped and don't take any action to close tax loopholes that let huge huge corporations not pay tax in this country. Every time this is questioned its 'oh we need the best people to stay in this country and in the jobs (particularly at banks). Yes, still operating at huge losses and yet still getting huge bonuses. I somehow doubt they are the best people in that if you told them to pay what was owed they would suddenly decide to flee the country!

What your comment smacks of is childish "why should you have what I don't?!"

rowan it used to be called the politics of envy and was roundly condemned in government circles.

It hasn't gone away but it's not called that any more since the people the Government are keen to encourage us to envy are those in the public sector who still have good employment rights.

And also... People who borrowed too much privately were stupid. Just because high borrowing is available didn't mean they had to do it.

Just say no to credit is my motto

It astounds me that people borrow too much ever, given that there have ALWAYS been recessions and financial crisis and depressions. I don't even know how it managed to take so many by surprise!

Rowanhart

Sigh. Trying to explain how international monetary markets work to smeone who doesnt want to believe it. But here we go.

It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of basic, uncomplicated mathematics. If you take out loans, you have to pay them back.

In order for the market to survive there has to be a certain amount of borrowing and lending between nations and banks. The IMF recommend that this is between 1.5% and 3% for first world countries.

Ahh, now I understand the confusion. You're mixing up "uncontrolled public sector spending to buy votes" with "a certain amount of borrowing and lending."

For much of Labour's term we ran at the lower end of that scale.

For every year from 2001 to 2010, Labour ran a structural deficit. This meant that the national debt grew.

The capital expenditure programme of rebuilding collapsing schools and investing in new infrastructure in the fire service, as well as other, what I consider, worthwhile causes (like increasing the number of working class kids in Further Ed) pushed it towards the 3% mark, but it was very much affordable debt.

Most of those schoolznospitals have been built under PFI. That means we haven't bought them yet. We'll be paying for them for 40 years. That "capital expenditure programme" wasn't anything of the sort.

No debt is 'affordable'. You're making your children pay for you living the high life. It's a crime.

A bit like a mortage for the majority of us. We are all living In debt but it is affordable and because we do we help keep the banking system going.

Fantasy economics. It's nothing like a mortgage. It's like taking out a huge loan to buy yourself a speedboat, and then maxxing out your credit cards to pay off the loan.

The taxpayer now has to find £60Bn a year merely to service the interest on the country's debt.

^In terms of public sector pensions they affordable in that they are costing the taxpayer less in terms of GDP. www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/public-sector-strike^

The New Statesman's article is the same sort of fantasy economics that claim that running up debts is good for the country.

Now your comment about private sector workers funding public sector. Well many public sector workers (teachers, nurses, soldiers, etc) are paid far less than there private sector counterparts. A nurse in the private sector would earn more and would be able to pay their own pension. As would a teacher.

Average public sector pay is higher than average private sector pay and has been since around 2006. This doesn't include the shorter hours, longer holidays, longer sick leave and pensions.

What your comment smacks of is childish "why should you have what I don't?!" Why not fight for better pensions for the private sector as the real ticking time bomb in this country is how few people are going to have a decent pension and what that means for society? But instead you try and destroy the pensions of those who do. Short sighted economic illiteracy!

I think you have to be quite a long way to the left to classify fiscal probity as 'childish'. And 'short sighted'?? I'm not the one looking at the last decade and saying "everything's fine". Everything is NOT fine. Everything is fucked.

This country is going to have to suffer at least two decades of spending cuts in order to undo the damage your precious Labour party did. It was unforgiveable.

Rowanhart

Deluded? If you believe the deficit crisis is causes by overspending rather than the banking crisis it's not me who's deluded.

If you think that spending more than you take in taxes doesn't create a deficit, then it is you who is deluded.

Actually not going to engage in this further as the insults are starting to come through and I can't be bothered to engage with such silliness.

And we were all learning so much from your patronising tone.

I think my degree in PPE may indicate how I view economics.

It certainly does. It means that you view economics like an economist. That makes you wrong on the subject of government spending. Economics isn't a science. It makes no attempt to mathematically quantify human behaviour at a macro or a micro level and until it does that, then you might as well have read Media Studies for all the insight it'll give you in to the economy.

Your ignoring the fact that they are fuckig it up more though. Borrowing has increased and schools are falling
Down while bosses at taxpayer owned banks get huge bonuses and tax loopholes for massive companies do not get closed

They are looking at the poorest of people to solve the issue and placate the richest

Investing in social infrastructure is like buying a speedboat on credit card. Yes, yes, those pesky schools, hospitals and libraries are such a meaningless luxury.

I understand now. We have very different moralities...

Rowanhart

Investing in social infrastructure is like buying a speedboat on credit card. Yes, yes, those pesky schools, hospitals and libraries are such a meaningless luxury.

None of that stuff has been paid for yet.

I understand now. We have very different moralities...

Margaret Thatcher once wrote "I always cheer up immensely when a personal attack is especially wounding, because it shows that, if they attack one personally, then they have no actual arguments left."

If attempting to smear my 'morality' is all you've got left...

Wow. i didn't attempt to smear your mortality. I stated it was different to mine.

As I said, not engaging with insulting nonsense. We clearly have different perspectives on what is important in terms of Government investment and political imperatives.

Quite clearly illustrated by your quotation of Thatcher.

Apologies that you found my 'especially wounding' though. Hope you recover soon.

Yes op, it is in bad taste. I would pretty much go along with the spitting image portrayal of her while she was in power. However, she was democratically elected. The time to celebrate was when she lost power which was a long time ago. Now she is just an old lady.

The TUC should be paying attention to the labour party and supporting an electable leader.

(and although debt is generally bad for individuals, does any government or business of reasonable size exist that doesn't have debt?)

(and as far as I am aware we still don't have enough schools in the right places....)

I agree 100% with Merrymouse.

You disliked her as a politician. Celebrate when she was no longer in power.

Leave her and her family in peace.

And, ask yourself: What have YOU done to help the nation? Blair created a whole nation of people who just sit there and ask what's in it for them, without ever, for a second, asking what they might contribute.