to want another child although strictly speaking we can't afford it?

[melonandpapayaandmango]

If we had a fourth, no one would starve, no one would go barefoot and no one would be homeless.

DD is 5, DS1 is 3 and DS2 is only 3 months. I've always wanted a big family, DH was happy with 2 children but I persuaded him to have a 3rd - he agreed and now he has said he likes the idea of an even number.

at the moment my two older children share a room (DS2 is in with us) but we hope to move house in the next 2 years but it would probably be a 3 bedroom property meaning the two boys would still have to share - a third DS would go in with them, a daughter would share with DD.

it's mainly the living space - any thoughts?

YANBU to want another child at all, and if both of you want another one then go for it when it seems a good idea. There are obviously financial implications and the fact is that no-one can ever "afford" to have a baby (or very few) without feeling the impact financially, 4 children in a 2 bedroom house would probably be pushing your luck but you should be ok in a 3 bed. As you say, a new car wouldbe a must but the real issue (or for me, it would be) is whether both of you want another baby, as I've known a lot of couples where one (normally the mother, but not always) wants another baby and the other partner doesn't. I'd love another one, but my DH is adamant that we're not having any more and he's now had the snip (against my wishes) and I'm getting a bit old now anyway, but in the past it has caused a few issues. Make sure you talk it through together.

Thanks for comments. Marriedinwhite - I had private tutors for Science, Maths and French and I just hated it so much, it ruined my social life as a teenager and I can't honestly say it made any difference to the grades I got in the end so I have to confess I've always strongly felt I won't put a child of mine through that!

DH is Science & Maths so he'll be able to help if needed

I don't know! I do feel blessed with what I have but I also know that I don't feel we're done yet.

Probably better to move house and then seriously think about it - I just want them to be close in age and to have (hopefully) a strong bond. :)

In your shoes I'd have another. I say that as someone desperate for a second, whose husband is terribly opposed. You are very stable financially, and while not ever likely to be rich, you will always be okay. (I am assuming you have really good insurance, in case he is ever seriously ill or killed?) You also live in an expensive area, and in the future as he looks for headships you could move to somewhere cheaper without his salary dropping accordingly. You'll be able to earn, too.

The only reasons not to have another, as far as I can see, are if they are literally unaffordable or one parent is dead set against. Those are dealbreakers. If you are both keen and can just about manage the finances, then I would. Or you'll always wonder.

Just as long as you're sure you aren't someone who would always, always want just one more!

I'm one of 4 children - dad worked, mum was SAHM until I was 12 (I'm the oldest). I do love 2 of my siblings dearly, we get on brilliantly still, and we got on ok as kids.

however, I had to share a room until I was 15. I couldn't do the sport I was interested in, as parents couldn't afford it at the time. I was very very strongly encouraged to go to local uni and live at home.

We didn't go without shoes or food, but as we left home one by one, my parents had more cash freed up for the next one in line - so sibling 1 got to go away for uni, sibling 2 got to do foreign school trips, and go away to uni, sibling 3 got to do sport he wanted, and go away to uni. They all got family holidays overseas too - I managed 2 family holidays abroad, one of which was because I was studying in the country they visited at the time!

and other things like my 21st birthday present was a small beat up car so I could get to and from uni and give dad a lift every day too - brilliant present, I loved it, and am still so grateful for having it - but when I moved away at 22, the car was given to my sibling who was learning to drive. then said sibling got a massive 21st birthday present when the time came too. and car was handed down to the next sibling. who also got a great 21st present. I'm not bothered by it, but it niggled at the time.

my parents are often asked what was the single biggest problem to having 4 children, and they both said the money, always always the money.

DH and I have vowed never to have 4 kids!

Well, we wouldn't be going abroad even if we had no children at all so nothing changes there but yes, it's really the room-sharing I feel a bit about - and unsure whether I'm being unfair to DD in particular, as undoubtedly she'll really be the one most effected.

Argh. I don't know!

But Kveta - you had your mum at home until you were 12. The others didn't. How do you value that privilege? Perhaps your parents felt you had greater privileges when you were very small when there weren't four children. Perhaps they went on holiday to the country you were studying in when they would have preferred to go somewhere else but when where you were.

Your post comes across as incredibly sad and very bitter. My MIL was the eldest of five and at 76 still whinges about babysitting the little ones and sharing a room and the fact that she couldn't go to university after teacher training college because they were poor. It's an attitude that has seriously made her a very unhappy person.

You say you hope to move to a 3 bed in a couple of years so how many beds do you have now? And are they decent sized rooms or do you have a box room?

If you need to sell to be able to move then remember the housing market is not good at the moment and i cant see it changing within the next couple of years so you could well be stuck where you are. Can you fit 4 in the beds you have now without all living on top of each other?

I was oldest of 5 and shared a room from when I was very little until I was about 15. I don't resent it at all. It was lovely at times, annoying at other times. We had bunk beds for some of that, which was actually quite fun at times.

My parents were 24 when they had me, and money was tight. They had 3 in quick succession. I was 1.2 when my sister was born, and just turned 3 when my brother was born. Then a big gap between my two brothers.

If you want 4, I'd suggest not leaving it too long if you can help it (though my parents didn't have the choice in this case). My 2 brothers, being the boys, were sort of expected to play together, but 7 years between them meant that wasn't really feasible.

You know the dynamics between your oldest 2 at least, and maybe can decide how another child would affect the existing ones.

I wouldn't worry too much about sharing rooms though, children cope with that, and most don't really realise that the situation they're in isn't "normal" until they're old enough to understand why they're in that situation (iyswim).

I think kveta posts some interesting and valid points and doesn't sound incredibly sad or bitter, just realistic about what can happen to the eldest in a larger family where money is an issue. The eldest is often expected to act as a surrogate parent to the younger ones and can lose out in ways the younger ones don't. Dh's older brother also recalls the lack of money for his uni course, contrasted with the greater amount available for dh as his parents had more money by then. Such is life and the more kids you have the more likely it is to happen. The parents might well not care about sports clubs, university,labelled clothes etc but that doesn't mean the kids won't care - they might.

Unrelated to op, but a friend of mine comes from a large family of 8 kids. She refuses to have kids herself because as the eldest she had to take care of the younger ones so much she feels she's done her childrearing. I always found that very sad for her. She was bitter about it but I don't blame her

Apologies op, not really related to your question, 4 is very different to 8 and I'm sure you wouldn't do that anyway!!

Cantspel - at the moment we have a 2 bedroomed property. The bedrooms are decent sizes, DD and DS1 share and DS2 is a baby so still in with us.

The house has sold and we are soon moving to a 3 bedroomed Victorian terrace, where DD will have her own bedroom and the DSs will share.

I don't have anything against children sharing but ideally I'd like them all to have their own space when they start secondary - but not sure really

thing is, when you have more DCs in the house, bedroom space can be more important if there's not spaces downstairs they can have (like conservatory that can be a second living room or a study for homework) - in your new house, would there be anyway you could convert the loft to add if not an extra bedroom, an extra playroom/sitting room?

Just because you want a baby and you feel like there is a space in your family does not mean you should have one especially if you would then have to rely on benefits. A family may really want a large audi or BMW but we don't give them benefits if they go and buy one then can't afford the upkeep do we yet people think he i'll go and create a whole new life that they cannot afford just because they want one.

What about seeking a professional to help you through this urge rather than the court of mumsnet who will probably on the whole just tell you to go ahead. with a baby.

I have 3. 10 year old and 7 year old twins. Our food bills are huge despite careful meal planning. Clothes and shoes add up. I want them to do a couple of hobbies (adds up x 3). If they go to uni I want to help them.

Novack we don't rely on benefits! What a strange (and rude!) post. I hardly need a professional's help becasue we're thinking whether to add to our family or not

Verytellytubby - yes, me too.

I'm not bitter :) just wanted to say these things had happened because of being in a larger family - some folk are unfussed by it, others not so much! And I was 2 when sibling 1 arrived, so don't recall a time without her around. mum went back to p/t work when I was 12, youngest 7, and it didn't bother us at all, as she worked around dad's work hours, so until my youngest sibling was in 6th year, she was always there to get us on the school bus, meet us coming home, and cook dinner/supervise homework. if anything, I probably 'suffered' (if that's the right word? it wasn't really suffering, but you know what I mean?) more as she really loved going back to work and was far happier when she was working.

re: room sharing - at the time it annoyed me, because we all shared for a few years, then I shared with sibling 2 until I was 15, her 13, then my parents had extended enough that we all got our own rooms - so I had less time in my own room than any of the others IYSWIM? and she was very tidy, whilst I am, um, not, so I was always getting a bollocking for making the room look a mess, which stopped being a problem when we had our own rooms for some reason.

I haven't done badly in life at all, but my siblings, particularly the younger 2, had a very different upbringing from me, and I was expected to be the responsible one all the time, and understand when they got things I could never have had. Regarding the foreign holidays, at the time I was upset/jealous that all friends were going abroad, 2 of my siblings (the middle two) were able to go on foreign school trips that I was unable to do - but I made up for it when I was able to, and am much more widely travelled than siblings 1 and 3 (sibling 2 has ended up living overseas, and has travelled in europe a lot). So overall, it hasn't bothered me - but at the time it did.

we were 7, 5 and 3, when sibling 4 was born, so are 2, 3, and 2 school years apart.

I should add that one sibling has serious chronic health issues, and as such, my parents gave said sibling WAY more attention than the rest of us (they had to really!). said sibling does not get on with the rest of us, to the extent of refusing to attend my wedding, and is not the youngest. My parents have said it was hard having to give so much time and energy to one of us, to the detriment of the other 3. but that would be the same no matter how many children you have I imagine?

I guess it comes down to what sort of childhood you want your existing DCs to have. there will be a way to cope but on your DH's wage, with 3 DCs (especially if you go back to work and increase family income) you should be able to afford a good lifestyle for them, with 4 and extending your time not working, you will reducing what you can do for them, both financially and timewise. Only you can say if that will be worth it for an extra sibling.

The query as to whether a loft conversion is feasible in the new house is a good one. In another 5-10 years you'll have paid down so much of the mortgage that you should be able to either save or borrow to fund that. It's always a good investment anyway. And if you have the classic size of 3 bed Victorian house, with a kitchen you can eat in, and then a living room and dining room, you could always use the dining room as a bedroom anyway (put a stud wall back up if that's necessary due to it being knocked through). The prospects of your earnings increasing a fair bit are obvious and you aren't overcrowded, are you.

Basically if your DH is on course for a headship, and you are going to be returning to work when all the kids are school age, that puts it in reach, I think. Though forgive me for mentioning it, but PLEASE do get good insurance for his life/health if you've not already. Knock his salary out of the equation and your kids are plunged straight into poverty. Contrary to common belief, benefits just cannot be enough to live on for more than a stop-gap period.

I'm amused by the idea that a salary such as your DH's would entitle you to many benefits other than the standard CB; although you're far from rich he is still higher rate taxed. It appears the media representation is paying off, and people think they're showering down from the sky on anyone with kids.

It is interesting though isn't it, if we set the subject of family size to one size for the moment. I travelled a lot as a child, constantly going abroad during school holidays, and I absolutely hated it!

Absolutely perfectstorm - all we get is CB, and I imagine that will go quite soon. :)

Love transcends everything beyond the basics.

Go for it OP.

If it's as pared to the bone as "no one would starve or go without a coat", I personally wouldn't. They get progressively more expensive as they get older, and it's not fair to make already scarce resources stretch even further.
There's so much more I want to give my children than just enough to eat.

Novak, what sort of professional help is available for people with the urge for another child?

Having a baby is an expression of love.

If it is bedrooms you are worried about them go ahead. Really, there is nothing wrong with kids sharing rooms even in their teens. I have 5 boys and 3 bedrooms. Ds1 (13) and ds2 (10) have the smallest room. The twins (8) and ds5 (5) have the biggest bedroom, and dh and I have the middle room.

They'd all live their own room, but unless we win the lottery that's not going to happen. Dh shared with his brothers till he left home in his early twenties and didn't mind.

As for extra curricular activities, all they do is Cubs/Scours. It means they get the chance to do lots of activities, and go on camps etc as we don't really do family holidays either.

We earn a lot less than you do, and yes, it can be a struggle but they all have clothes, food and a place to sleep and are happy.