to not want exp to take the kids on holiday abroad?

[hotsauce]

we split up 8 years ago and he has never taken them on holiday.

this summer holiday he has offered to have them one extra day, that's it. he couldn't spare anymore time off work. he then announced he was going away with his girlfriend.

I pointed out that he was a selfish knob and since then he has asked several times if the kids have passports.

I don't trust him to look after them properly abroad, he can't swim and won't get in the water, how can he supervise 4 of them?

part of me thinks he is just trying to make a grand gesture and upset me.I could never afford to take the kids abroad, but I have spent years holidaying with them in this country, why does he get to give them the holiday that I can't.

I also panic about long journeys and like us to all be together. if the plane is going to crash, I want to be on it with them.

so am I unreasonable?

YANBU. I have 5 DC and it is very very hard keeping tabs on them all while abroad/away/out especially when little. You have got to be on the ball 12 hrs of a day. My DH is capable but not the same as me. I have come down to find toddlers playing with scissors, knives within reach etc! But he has always looked after them alone for some time and they have survived..

I would hate them going abroad without me but if you have split there isn't much you can do to stop them so i would have to grin and bear it. I was a nervous wreck sending mine to cub camps etc age 7 but they loved it-I was a wreck all weekend (pictured all sorts of bad things happening) but didn't stop them.

I agree get swimming lessons but that doesn't mean kids don't need supervision in water, swimmers can drown too. See if they can go for a week instead of two and if he will wait till they are abit older. It is going to be very expensive with 4 DC to go abroad so maybe he is calling your bluff. Also it won't be very relaxing for him and his gf. It is a toughie, YANBU to feel like that though-I reckon alot of mums would be the same..

Apologies. I misunderstood and assumed that your OP was referring to your ex putting them at risk - you said you cannot trust him to look after them properly, and there is some issue about swimming?

If your fears are not that he'll put them in danger, but he'll keep them up late, feed them junk, allow them to misbehave - generally be a bit slapdash, then i think YABabitU to not want them to go just because of that

I don't think he will deliberately put them in danger, but I am worried that his lack of experience will cause problems and I am worried about swimming.

I am going to leave this now, I spent last night worrying, I don't intend to have to fight my corner here all evening tonight. thank you those of you who made an effort to understand and offer advice.

They are all over 8, yes?

I don't think you can call someone who does 10% of the childcare an equal parent, tbh

Are you telling me that OP wants him to have them on a 50/50 basis? I bet she wouldn't be happy if this happened!
He is equal in that they are his DCs.

An 8yr old is allowed to go into swimming pools in UK without an adult so I am sure they can manage on holiday.

exoticfruits - the difference is that in the UK, a public swimming pool will always have 2 trained lifeguards on duty, in a private villa with a pool there may be no-one at all at the pool.

I am :o that everyone is so against the OP, there is no way I would think it was a good idea for someone who finds a weekend difficult to take 4 kids (and although the eldest is 14, that can pose its own challenges...) abroad for a week.

Try a week in the UK first, if that goes well then he can think about taking them abroad.

The comment about 8 year olds and food is simply that for lots of 8 year olds, even those without food issues, food that is very different to what they are used to may be stressful - a parent who does 50%+ of the childcare will be in a much better position to cope with this than one who does about 10%. It was simply an example of a problem that may occur that he may not have considered.

As I said, legally the absent parent might be considered equal, but in all other respects he/she isn't when they do so little of the childcare/raising. The fact that someone provided some sperm and gives up 2 days out of 14 every fortnight does not make them equal to the parent that does 12 out of 14 every fortnight - and also some of the 2 days when dad decides he can't be arsed to deal with difficult children and dumps them back early.

Sorry, but there is no equality in that scenario.

i agree with Ofmice

Having equal rights does not mean that they are equals as parents. They are not even close!

The OPs ex cant cope (or even try to) when his DD is upset and wants to see him! WTF kind of parent just walks away from that?!

A NRP doesn't have equal rights they have equal responsibilities - and that means that like-it-or-not, parents of a child who is not subject to a court order are considered equally capable of that responsibility - even if that parent has had little or no contact with the DCs during the course of their life.

I am still [shocked] that anyone who is concerned about the ability of another adult to take responsibility for the physical and emotional wellbeing of a child under some circumstances would encourage and expect that same adult to take more responsibility for a child in other situations. Unless the Dads home and lifestyle is incredible well managed and supervised, the same, and other, risks are just as prevalent in his family home as the DCs will be exposed to on holiday. There are private pools without lifeguards in the UK, too - and lots of different cuisines that the DCs may not have tried, too!

Would there be as much negativity about the trip if it was grandparent, aunt or family friend offering the opportunity? Based on some of the reasoning in this thread, children should only ever be taken on holiday by their primary carers as anyone else may inadvertently put the child at risk through their lack of daily familiarity with the child.

I suspect that if OP was given a villa holiday with a pool she would take it-there wouldn't be all this discussion about life guards- and someone is being very precious if they think that 'foreign food' is too stressful for an 8yr old! He will find enough to eat to keep him going for a week-even if he just sticks to bread and butter!

OP I understand your anxiety here, having been through a similar scenario myself last year with my DD going abroad with her dad for the 1st time. He only saw her every 6/8/10 weeks prior to the holiday and I was worried sick. I never said she couldn't go though. It went against my very strong instincts tbh, but I knew I'd regret it if I didn't allow her to go on the holiday. I had similar worries to you - ex did swim and they were going to water parks but I wasn't sure DD would be safe in that set up when the holiday was booked (ex very laid back/practically horizontal when it comes to keeping an eye on DD). I paid for swimming lessons to give her every chance that I thought she needed to be able to cope with the holiday i.e. water parks etc. In the end she had a brilliant time, and she has fond memories of the holiday.

My suggestion to you would be this:

Think of every practical thing that each child will need in preparation for the holiday - sun cream,, clothes (detail no. of t-shirts/shorts/underwear/trousers/skirts/jackets/cardigans/shoes/swimwear/goggles), swimming lessons, innoculations (depending on destination) passports, travel games/books/toys etc. You get the picture. List it all, every single thing you can think of that you would need for 4 x DCs for a holiday abroad, cost it as best you can, and tell him that this is everything he will need to do/get/arrange for the holiday he is suggesting. DO NOT do a single bit of the organising/arranging/buying - that is entirely his responsibility. Give him the list now and tell him that you are delighted he is considering this holiday for the kids, and your bit to help is the list you are giving him, so he has plenty of time to get all this in place for the holiday. A whole year to organise every thing that needs to be done for the holiday. Maybe give him a list of dates/school holidays where you suggest he takes the kids for longer than the EOW he currently has them, and suggest it as a build up to the holiday so he has more experience/time with them and is used to them for the longer period. When you tell him all this/give him the list, do it with a big smile. If he does everything, you will get more of a sense that he can actually step up when it's needed, and that in itself with give you a bit more confidence in his intentions with regard to the holiday. On the other hand, once he gets a look at the lengthy list you give him, knowing he has to do it all by himself, he may well back track and decide against the holiday abroad.

Of course things won't be exactly the same with the other parent- but differerent doesn't mean bad.

Slightly different situation... But when I was little mum was a traditional SAHM, dad went out to work and never did ANYTHING around the house or with us kids. I never saw him cook a meal or wash a plate, and evenings he would disappear behind his paper.

When me and my brother were about 8 and 10, she had to go away a week to look after my gran in the summer holidays. Dad had to take a week off work. Me and my brother were pretty much left to our own devices- we went off on our bikes for miles (mum normally gave strict instructions that we could only go round the block). My dads attempts at meals were pitiful- we had some weird combinations, I think I wore the same knickers all week and bed times went out the window- he'd send us up and we'd be in each others room mucking about half the night

And you know what? We had a great time. That week sticks in my mind nearly 40 years later.

In terms of 'equal parenting' my dad rarely lifted a finger, he barely noticed us most of the time whereas mum did everything for us. But the point is, as kids WE were happy- surely that's what matters

I think your fears are normal and understandable. i think your feelings that he is rushing in and being the disney parent but not doing so much of the everyday care is normal and resenting that is normal.

not everyparent is capable of looking after children safely. the childrens dad just can not see consequences of actions or reasons why things should not be alloweduntil the thing actually happens. the health vistor said she has come across others male and female) there are some people who i would trust to take care of the dc's... and others i would not. (male and female in both cases)

you have a year to teach children some personal responsibility. teaaching them to swim/water safety/use of suncream and reasons why/ what to do if they get lost/strategies for coping wheen they are stressed and want to run off (ducks as flying pigs pass) this will help to ease your worries. stuff you may not have needed to teach them yet as you do not go abroad or are there to remind them.

give him the responsibility for ordering/arranging paying for passports. he may fall at the first hurdle.

ideally he should spend a longer period of time with them, but everyother weekend is quite a bit. I would be concerned though if he just drops the children off when they are tooo much on his weekends.

8 yr olds not allowed into pool unaccompanied where we live - even accompanied if they can't swim properly (dh took some of dd's friends who had to prove they could swim)

Hotsauce, given your ex's lack of enthusiasm for spending more time with his children I too would be concerned about their welfare, I assume he'd need all the pitfalls including the swimming pointing out to him? I'd suggest he fix the passports and pay for them, to see how committed he is.

Dh has a good friend who is divorced, and has taken his 3 kids on holiday every year on how own and has them to stay whenever he can, I wouldn't hesitate saying yes to him looking after my girls.

You lot can be very harsh sometimes, you know.

What comes across to me from reading hotsauce's posts, is that she adores her children and wants what's best for them. Clearly this guy isn't able to even rise to the occasion when on home territory so I can quite understand why HS has reservations and concerns about him taking them to a different country.

I do realise that this is AIBU but whatever happened to the Mumsnet where a poster would be responded to supportively, even if different points of view were held on the topic she posted?

Of course I feel for her - but this isn't a random man, he is the DCs father. Unless she wants to go into minute detail and have his permission for every thing that she does with them she can't expect to do it to him.
I think it is quite supportive to tell her to explain that he needs to get 4 passports and then keep quiet - the odds are that it will come to nothing.

I would have been on the op's side more if these had been little children- but these are all over 8. Which means that the eldest must be at least 14.

Just seen that all the children are over 8, that does minimise some risk, yes.
Children need to feel emotionally safe as well as physically, if I was in the same position and could not be confident that all children would be kept safe and be well cared for then I'd say 'no'.

Yes, some posts have, I agree, been supportive. :)
But, I think we need to accept that HS knows this man better than we do!

It was the 'why should he get to take them on holiday that I can't?' that made people

And then their age

And te fact he hasn't even booked or looked at things yet

And te fact that OP herself said that he sees them regularly and doesn't let them down

She is actively looking it reasons to say no IMO

I would agree with Kayano. I don't think that you can count that if they are in a plane crash she wants to be with them!

The "why should he get to take them when I can't" is an understandable reaction, although perhaps unwise to express it here as it unleashes the harridans.

I would call dumping them back home when their behaviour becomes challenging letting them down - it lets down the OP too because, not only does she lose some of the little time she has childfree, but she also has to deal with angry and difficult children whilst he swans off home to his gf.

Tbh I would be wary of letting him take the children on holiday in this country, although that does have the advantage of allowing him to bring them back if he can't cope - provided he doesn't go too far.

I think the swimming thing was because the OP knows what type of holiday her children would enjoy and it's not one where she would be comfortable knowing that her exp is unable to look after them properly should the need arise.

I don't think she's actively looking for reasons, but is probably basing her concerns on a number of factors, not all of which she has chosen to share here. I do think the discussion is somewhat academic though as it is highly likely the promise of a foreign holiday will never materialise.

She doesn't want them to go - which is fair enough, however she needs to keep it secret from the DCs. In this case I think she has little to worry about - I would put money on it not happening if I had to bet.

I repeat- the oldest of these children is at least 14 and the youngest is 8.