To not to want to go out with my SIL and nephew

[GimmieChocolate]

Going to be a long one so get your cuppas and hobnobs ready!

My SIL has a 4 year old son who's quite, um, lively. Whenever they come to our house he has to be centre of attention, running around, jumping up and down, generally being very annoying. He interrupts, thinks it's acceptable to demand things etc... He's also the same when out.

This week I met them in town with my 10 week old DD and we went for lunch. Nephew was not only child in restaurant of his kind of age but he was the only one running up and down not sitting in his seat, being loud. We were talking about my DD and he kept saying "look at me, look at me, look what im doing, look at me" as for all of a minute it wasnt about him. He was given his options for lunch which when arrived he had cut into small pieces for him which he then ate with his fingers!! At 4!! There was a pot of mayonnaise put on the table which he just put his hand into, licked and then did same again so no one else could then really have any, and then went to touch my DD. I very quickly stopped him as yes ok I might be a bit pfb, but i didn't want Germy, grubby, sticky mayonnaise hands on my DD! He was then having his drink and flicking the straw around so I kept getting bits of juice flicked at me. I did say to him "you've just flicked your drink on me" and he just carried on. To be honest I did not enjoy the whole lunch. And by the way, the whole eating with hands thing is not unusual, I've never seen him use cutlery.

Fast forward to walking around town, I wanted to get DD a few bits of clothes and when I'd paid for them he just turned and said " can you buy me a present now" I was completely shocked that he just came out with it and said "it's not polite to ask for things" to which he replied "don't be silly yes it is so can you buy me a present" I obviously didn't buy him anything but he went on and on about it until he got into a strop!

We then all went into another shop where SIL got him a paddling pool but that wasn't good enough, no, he had a full on tantrum as she wouldn't buy him any other toys from in there. I was mortifiyingly embarrassed to be seen with them if I'm honest.

She wants to meet up regularly so she can see my DD, her niece, but I really do not want to be out with her DS. That behaviour is quite normal for him and I find it embarrassing and just quite unacceptable for a child to behave. If it was a one off I could understand, but he's like it every time I've seen him!

Am I really BU that I don't want to be out with him?

OP I would have been pretty fed up too and I would not be going out again with her DS until he could behave in a restaurant. As for asking for a present- unbelievable.

My DCs weren't taken out to restaurants at that age as it was too stressful, they were bored and it wasn't fun for anyone.

I did take them home immediately if they ever misbehaved when we were out. DH and I have zero tolerance of poor behaviour. We had to carry it out more than once.

My teens have noted that DH and I were very tough on them when they were small but are very laid back now. We point out that we laid good foundations so that it is not necessary for us to be tough now.

Op-I find the things you have said about a 4 year old little boy quite nasty tbh. Nasty.....

I just find the 'come back when you're in that exact situation' argument limited. As if you cannot have any opinion or even insight into what you would do unless you also had a 4yo.

It is a lazy and easy way of shutting down any discourse. It was something people would say to me about my politics when i was younger - patronising eye roll and come back when you are older type thing. But i am older and my opinions are just the same.

Disagree by all means, but belittling someones point is not a valid response in a debate.

I'm with you op. I have a 6 yr old ds and a 4yr old dd. Neither of them behave like that. Ds is the 'perfect' child. He's never attempted to play up but dd is a different matter entirely. She would love to run around and play with her food and be annoying but I have taught her not to.

And I take them on 'boring' shopping trips with me. They walk around shops with me, sit in changing rooms while I try clothes on and I've never had this kind of behaviour. At what age should they be taught that it's not acceptable to run around causing mayhem? My children know that if they behave for my stuff, they'll get to do something fun for them later. But I refuse to render myself housebound unless it's all about them.

I find it hilarious that you're not allowed to say that a child is badly behaved without suddenly meaning you hate them!

I'm also quite surprised by the amount of people that think bad behaviour is ok! I wasn't saying I hate him, just the bad behaviour! Who likes bad behaviour for goodness sake?!

If its nasty to say a child is naughty and god forbid actually describe that behaviour, I'd love to see how your children behave by having such wonderful, indulgent, obviously far more tolerant parents then I obviously will be!

Crazy!!

He isn't badly behaved op.
He is 4!!!
I am rue your child will be perfect. I am sure they will never embarrass you in public.
(evil cackle)

It simply is not possible to predict how you will manage your individual child's personality at age 4. My 4 year old is not badly behaved, but between her and her friends I have seen plenty of behaviour that 4 years ago we would all have said our babies would never do! Of course there is a time and a place for jumping about, but if a 4 year old is cooped up for a certain amount of time, they are going to combust if they don't get given some space to run around. There is no way you can decide when pregnant or with a small baby how your 4 year old will behave. You can enforce boundaries and discipline but many, many 4 year olds will be too exuberant to do a cafe lunch and shopping trip with no break. In my opinion.

Feel free to come and look at them.
Surely you have HEARD of the theory of labelling the behaviour and not the child? Pretty standard stuff in child-rearing, teaching and child psychology.
It is not being indulgent, it is about understanding how children develop emotionally. You seem like you want to be a good parent so maybe you need to get to grips with these basics...
Because, making a massive assumption, I bet your SiL bounces between indulgence and shouting at him and telling him how awful he is. Neither of these things have worked have they?

Oh dear. :-/

I have a 3.5 year old who is a lovely boy and who gets comments on his good behaviour all the time. I have no reason to feel defensive at all. And yet....

...I totally relate to your SIL in all of this.

You sound a teensy bit unbearable. Your nephew sounds like Hard Work. I'm not denying it for a moment.

But there's nothing quite like sitting with the parent of a 10 month old baby, who who thinks they have all the parenting answers to truly do your nut in.

10 WEEK nursebernard!!

The people I know who have had the biggest shock adjusting to being a parent were those who were teachers and thought they knew everything.

Oh Jaysus, I stand corrected...!

just because the OP seems judgemental and a little naive doesn't mean the child was not being very irritating

In my opinion it is not bad behaviour from children that is the most annoying part, it is when parents make no attempt to manage the behaviour.

I also was a teacher before having children, and it DID lull me into a false sense of how easy I would find it to parent. BUT I didn't stop trying to parent in the way I thought acceptable, just learned that it wasn't as easy to change or prevent negative behaviors as I thought it might me.

I wouldn't want to spend time with them either. Yes, 4 year olds can be obnoxious, but it's the lack of intervention by the mother that is the really stressful thing. My boys disn't like sitting still in restaurants, but I coped by having toys etc ready to entertain them. Dipping your fingers in the mayo is just gross, and your DIL is being completely U to tolerate that sort of nonsense. Any criticism of other people's parenting tends to go down very badly. Can only reiterate advice to choose less confined venues. If she suggests restaurant again, laugh and say "well it didn't go terribly well last time, did it?" and suggest an alternative.
If you want mayo another time and brat has despoiled it, call the waiter over and ask for some more, simples. Might even embarrass SIL into saying something to proto-oik.

Gimmie, I'm not saying that his behaviour is ok, it isn't.

As an example my SIL before she had a baby and when he was a baby made lots of sarcastic / helpful comments about sleeping and then how children should behave in restaurants. Her DS is now 4, both her and her husband are strict, much stricter than I or my DH are. However when we were on holiday and out eating lunch, it was her son who was playing up and had to be taken out several times. I found it really stressful and quite embarrassing (sp?), my children sat really well and ate their food, 5 yo DS and 2yo twins (so yes I do smile when I remember her judgy comments). However, they also have their moments and I'm sure the twins will throw some wonderful strops. My SIL & BIL are strict with him, he is taken out and even taken home if he is behaving badly, he is a handful at the moment.

I'm just trying to say that it isn't always straight forward or simple raising chidlren, they are individuals. I'm not trying to closing the argument down
but do bear in mind that it can look a lot different when you get there.

Yabu. Yes he probably wasn't that well behaved (running around restaurant etc) but he's 4. He might have had an off day. His mother might have promised him the trip to the park and he was disappointed and so was whiny. I have a 4.5 and a nearly 2. They both can eat with cutlery but sometimes it's easier to use fingers.

You sound like my SIL. She's not got kids but has already said that breastfeeding is wrong (? She. A.nurse!) and wouldn't agree to having dinner at 6.

I wish you all the best for when your child is 4. Of course one can not predict how you will parent when your child is older. Hence why you shouldn't pass judgement now when you have no knowledge. At. All.

Hmm, interesting one. I can see both sides of it.

On the one hand, some of his behaviour does sound a bit naughty. I wonder why SIL didn't correct him for running up and down, or putting his whole hand in the mayo, for example. My middle son is 4, and although I don't think he'd do those things anyway, he'd certainly be told that it is wrong if he did.

I also wonder why she suggested going to a restaurant if she knows he's like this.

On the other hand, the tone of your OP does sound a bit judgey. You've explained further down the thread that you do love him and have done lots of nice things for him. All the same, you acknowledge you might be a tad pfb - perhaps there is a bit of that in there too (not a bad thing btw, I was the same!). As some people have said, you might be a bit more tolerant when you've experienced parenting your own child at that stage.

Overall though, even with those extra years of experience, I think I'd still be a bit annoyed by your DN's behaviour, so YANBU for not wanting to do similar activities with them again!

"I just find the 'come back when you're in that exact situation' argument limited. As if you cannot have any opinion or even insight into what you would do unless you also had a 4yo."

Nobody is saying that you can't have any insight.

They're just suggesting your lack of experience as an explanation for your obvious lack of insight.

I know people without children who are very insightful about them.

They never make ridiculous claims about what they would/will "put up with".

Before I had children I knew that making definite predictions about how my children would be and how I would respond to them was foolish.

So I didn't.

"But i am older and my opinions are just the same."

So either you were wise beyond your years or you are intransigent and unwilling to change your mind.

I definitely experienced this trying.
I can control a group of difficult 15 year old boys with just a look; on occasions my children (who are generally really well behaved) have reduced me to yelling and occasionally to tears. I don't think it occurred to me that you can't actually discipline a child who is under two because they have no concept of consequences!!

My 6 and 3 year old dcs can now be taken to cafes and behave. But we have to keep them engaged - chat to them and include them. If another adult is there who wants to ignore them then it Suddenly becomes very difficult. Would you exclude another adult from the conversation and expect them to be happy? It is the same with shopping. I can take dcs shopping and divide my attention between shopping and dcs. But if a friend was there expecting me to be admiring her pfb at the same time I would have less energy to manage dcs.

I know people like you, op, who just want to ignore dcs and have the focus on them. It makes the dcs behave much worse and I try to limit the time I spend with those people.

I don't think you are being unreasonable in the slightest, why are we expected to like everyone elses child? I have a friend with a 4 year old I detest, demanding sweets and ice cream the moment she arrives, she's vile to my 2.5 year old pulls the uglyist faces when her mums not looking and irritates me no end. I think my friend is wondering why I only seem to be free to meet up during term time! Haven't the heart to telll her its because I want nothing to do with her undisiplined brat. And I really don't think the world should revolve around kids. A four year old should def behave better than that in a resturant, and as to the asking for a present, i'd have said when u can behave and show some good manners u MIGHT get one!

Is that directed at me trying ? Because if so, i have not said i know everything (i taught secondary school btw). My point was directed not at the OP at all but at all those saying how boring that day sounded to a 4yo and that she should have done something 4yo appropriate. My point was why? why does everything have to be 'fun' for a 4yo? etc. I made my point about teaching children and seeing the difference of attention spans of those who are used to constant stimulation. Nothing to do with how i will 'parent'.

I have no idea, as i have said, about a lot of ways i will parent. But i do know that without some kind of major personality shift, SOME behaviours will always be unacceptable to me. EG i will never think throwing food/flicking drink is okay for a quiet/easy life at the expense of others enjoyment of a restaurant.

Teachers as parents reminds me - last summer we bumped into DS's Y1 teacher and her two kids (6 and 4) at a farm park / playground place.

She is the best teacher in the school, loved by all the parents and reknowned for keeping control in a calm and happy way, helping the children learn and develop, etc.

Her own kids were running rings round her and she looked really stressed!

She must just have been having a bad day, but it did give me an insight that even the most capable people are stressed by their own children sometimes.

I meant the teacher comment trying sorry for confusion.

"I have a friend with a 4 year old I detest"

You should tell your friend that you hate her child. I'm sure she'll understand, since it's so reasonable to feel that way.