To not to want to go out with my SIL and nephew

[GimmieChocolate]

Going to be a long one so get your cuppas and hobnobs ready!

My SIL has a 4 year old son who's quite, um, lively. Whenever they come to our house he has to be centre of attention, running around, jumping up and down, generally being very annoying. He interrupts, thinks it's acceptable to demand things etc... He's also the same when out.

This week I met them in town with my 10 week old DD and we went for lunch. Nephew was not only child in restaurant of his kind of age but he was the only one running up and down not sitting in his seat, being loud. We were talking about my DD and he kept saying "look at me, look at me, look what im doing, look at me" as for all of a minute it wasnt about him. He was given his options for lunch which when arrived he had cut into small pieces for him which he then ate with his fingers!! At 4!! There was a pot of mayonnaise put on the table which he just put his hand into, licked and then did same again so no one else could then really have any, and then went to touch my DD. I very quickly stopped him as yes ok I might be a bit pfb, but i didn't want Germy, grubby, sticky mayonnaise hands on my DD! He was then having his drink and flicking the straw around so I kept getting bits of juice flicked at me. I did say to him "you've just flicked your drink on me" and he just carried on. To be honest I did not enjoy the whole lunch. And by the way, the whole eating with hands thing is not unusual, I've never seen him use cutlery.

Fast forward to walking around town, I wanted to get DD a few bits of clothes and when I'd paid for them he just turned and said " can you buy me a present now" I was completely shocked that he just came out with it and said "it's not polite to ask for things" to which he replied "don't be silly yes it is so can you buy me a present" I obviously didn't buy him anything but he went on and on about it until he got into a strop!

We then all went into another shop where SIL got him a paddling pool but that wasn't good enough, no, he had a full on tantrum as she wouldn't buy him any other toys from in there. I was mortifiyingly embarrassed to be seen with them if I'm honest.

She wants to meet up regularly so she can see my DD, her niece, but I really do not want to be out with her DS. That behaviour is quite normal for him and I find it embarrassing and just quite unacceptable for a child to behave. If it was a one off I could understand, but he's like it every time I've seen him!

Am I really BU that I don't want to be out with him?

I wholly admit to pfb with the messy hands but I am and always have been very particular about cleanliness and hygiene. My DD was in her pram asleep for most of the lunch so she wasn't getting any attention that was being taken away from him. It's very hard for him not to be centre of attention so I can assure you this was not the issue! I was talking with him, asking him about foods he likes, is he looking forward to school etc so I slightly resent the comment about not interacting with him!

As I've said more then once this isn't one off behaviour, it's the same regardless!

I am quite bemused at how many people say this was a boring day for a child. Why does every day have to entertain the child? Seriously, when i was 4, if the adults had to do shopping then it was tough shit. Why is everything so child centric? What are you supposed to do about chores and shopping or just doing what you want to do every now and then? Are they to learn that every day revolves around them and constant 4 year old stimulation/activities? There were 3 others in the group, so why does the 4 year olds desire (not needs at all) trump everyone elses?

I am genuinely curious (pregnant with 1st DC atm so am unsure what i am supposed to do if i need to go shopping when my pfb is 4).

But read your post and then imagine someone else had written it about YOUR child. Perhaps then you can see how angry you seem. You're criticising a child rather than his behaviour.

Spuddy you make your chores interesting for a four year old. Your life's just about to become ENTIRELY child centric because a parenting is about putting someone else's needs above your own. As they get older the balance gets easier but at pre-school age I would plan to do any clothes shopping alone!

You're not being unreasonable for not wanting to go out with them if it's going to be that much of a trial - but I think you are being highly so in displaying such dislike for a very little boy.

Because that's what's coming across most clearly here " he has to be the centre of attention" etc. He's 4, ffs - barely out of the toddler years. And if his behaviour is unacceptable, it's the fault of your sister (if it's anyone's fault) and her, possibly, poor parenting.

And I don't know why you feel so "shocked" at him asking for a present. Little children are still learning boundaries like that. If he's still doing it at 14, that's the time to worry - but he won't be.

Just wait till your perfect little angel is playing you up at 4 and embarrassing you in front of everyone. Because, in spite of your no doubt vastly superior parenting, she will do.

My ds would have behaved like this at 4 if he was taken to a cafe and expected to sit quietly while the adults had a conversation that excluded him. He has been extremely well behaved in structured educational environments since he was 3.5. The difference being that there is something for him to do.

Agree with spuddy.

I only have childcare whilst I work so any shopping and boring stuff gets done with kids in tow. Glad really because all 3 realise the world doesn't revolve around them.

Well sadly clemette with no one to look after my PFB, it's shopping with me or tying it to a railing outside!

And i don't agree about parenting being about putting someone else wishes above yours, i think it will be often about teaching them that their desires ('needs' are food and sleep) are often secondary and adults are in charge.

I would agree with the other posters saying do something more child friendly next time, if he can run, play etc you'll all have a lot more fun. However, I think that a 4 yo should be able to sit down and have a meal in a restaurant without disturbing other people. Having said that, when we do it, we keep it short and provide quiet toys or colouring stuff, surprised your SIL didn't do this. Sometimes though it just doesn't work, and the kids are a pain in the arse, we tell to behave but if its not working we just cut it short and leave.

I wouldn't raise it with your SIL, she won't receive it well, I know I didn't from my SIL who gave me lots of unsolicited advice with my oldest when she didn't have any. (And before anyone jumps on me saying that I should be told if my kids are out of line, they weren't, she just had no experience of children and loved giving people her opinion). If you do, she will spend the next few years casting a critical eye over your childs behaviour and love it when yours play up in a restaurant, any they will at some point. I also wouldn't worry about them going to school, reception class teachers are very good at getting children to be well behaved in class. I know lots of lively (i.e. a handful) who behave well in class and have good reports. They often behave better than at home.

I have only gone clothes shopping for myself with my child a handful of times. And that's pretty normal for my peer group - mums of 3 year olds.

Kids play up. He sounds like a normal boy to me. He behaved badly with the straw but for crying out loud - you say "no X. Stop that." cos remarking you've been hit is just encouragement to do it again.

Give your sil a break. kids can play up. and your kid might have food issues DESPITE your wonderful parenting.

Your post just comes across as mean and spiteful tbh. I think your sil is probsbly better off without the judging and sighing you can offer.

Being the bossy middle aged trout that I am I'm more than happy to parent other people's children if they don't do it. Then it's up to them to either step up to the mark or decide not to inflict their children on me any more. Try this approach with your SIL.

I love it when non-parents talk about how they will parent...
Adults are in charge here, chores get done with the children but in a way that involves the children. Clothes shopping is done online or when they are at school/nursery and I have an hour in town. If I have to do something they don't enjoy I make sure I take things for them to do.
I was incredibly me-centric before I had them. I sometimes resent the fact that I need to think about them before myself, but that's the reality and like many things when you have a baby you can waste time and energy asserting your right to be in "charge" or you can accept the seismic change in the way life will work for at least the next five years...

If I was your SIL I wouldn't want to go out with you and your judging. Bet she feels stressed and he is picking up on it. Wonder if your dd will be as perfect as you think at 4 ?

Spuddybean I thnk you and I are of the same school of thought! Children need boundaries and understand that they aren't in charge! My DH works very long hours sometimes up to 12 hours a day 5 days a week so I do my chores with my DD. She comes to supermarket with me etc and will do when older too.

Yes there's likely to be times when she will act up but l would sincerely hope it was the exception not the norm! Any bad behaviour will be picked up on and dealt with just as it was with me! I can remember my mum having a conversation with another grown up when I must of been maybe 5, and just interrupted her. I was told off there and then for not saying 'excuse me please mummy' and guess what, I used that instead of interrupting.

I understand children test boundaries but when they constantly misbehave regardless what situation they're in I think it's not me over reacting!

YANBU to not want to go out with them if your SIL makes no attempt to impose boundaries or deal with poor behaviour, but YABU to blame your nephew for this - if he is never told not to behave in a particular way then how is he supposed to know?

It does sound like a bit of a trial - my 3 year-old is capable of being a pain in the backside when he is bored or tired, but he is still pulled up on bad behaviour and I would have been mortified if he had demanded a present from another adult. Having said that, I have had the immense pleasure of trying to deal with a tantrum of epic proportions in the middle of an NCT sale cafe, right in front of a mini-meet of brand new NCT parents, all sitting there with their adorable 2 week old babies, gazing at us in horror and making muttered comments to one another. I had the greatest difficulty not saying "see you back here in 2 years and you can apologise for those judgy faces". And as for the dad who chose that very moment to start a loud lecture to the rest of the group about how my wrap sling was very dangerous and only Baby Bjorns are safe, and how he could quite understand why some people might resort to them but he wouldn't personally be taking the risk, he is lucky he still has his gonads.

Most children will kick off at some point - I have a pretty low tolerance for public tantrums and I have got up and taken him out of a cafe/shop/gym class before, but being zero-tolerance about the tantrums when they happen doesn't necessarily mean they never happen again!

What non-parents?

Spuddy, try the internet. TBH its really easy shopping with a newborn, they usually just feed, wee and sleep (with some projectile vomiting and explosive poos if you are really unlucky). Its a different thing altogether with a 4 yo, you can make it fun and yes they do need to be taught that the world goes on and chores need to be done etc but it is a balance, I wouldn't do it for any length of time.

You sound a lot like my SIL before she had a baby, its not going to change our lives, children should do exactly as adults want all of the time etc etc Just wait...... (I mean that nicely)

Wait til you have a four year old, competing for attention with a new baby, then be so judgemental.

if you are confident it wasnt a one off just make excuses for the rest of the summer holidays & thena rrange to meet when he is at school/nursery.

Give him 6 months & then try again. I agree a 4 yr old should be able to sit at a table & eat lunch with cutlery & he should be disciplined for bad manners
But its maybe just a testing stage he's going through, im sure with a little maturity he'll be an angel

Yup- she should have been telling him off BUT you are being hilariously u to think your darling angel wont ever play up and embarrass you in public, or be naughty etc- it's part of growing up. So if you see people out and about with misbehave g toddlers, don't judge them, sympathise with them as one day that'll be you!!

Come back in four years. Maybe next time try having lunch in a play centre or some thing similar. Sounds like he did pretty well considering what a boring day it must have been or him.

i think it is very patronising when people think they know how you will parent more than you do. Of course i know what i am like and what my circumstances are. It would be ridiculous for me to say i would be any different. I am not predicting a personality transplant when i give birth.

Yes i agree you try to make mundane things interesting for children - just like you do for yourself. But i will not be able to function if everything has to be centred around my child.

5 years ago, I thought like you. My dd1 is a very high energy child and finds it impossible to be still. She wouldn't be allowed to run around or put her hand in mayonnaise but not letting him touch your daughter? Very pfb I an afraid. 4 year olds say it as they see it and will ask for presents etc. I have a suspicion you will read your post in 4 years and realise you just didn't understand small children. When babues are born, we all think our children will be perfect and will never do this and that. Unfortunately our children have personalities of their own and they all have tantrums in shops sometimes.

Oh and yes i know it will change my life - i WANT it to change my life. But there are things which are part of life which cannot change and i also don't want a child who gets used to constant stimulation/attention. Having been a teacher, i could really tell the kids who had been brought up like that and those with more boundaries and the ability to entertain themselves and sit quietly.

YANBU OP. I have a 2yo DS and he is expected to sit nicely at restaurants and say please and thank you, and he does. We do take a book/small toy to keep him amused if he starts to get bored; but he likes staring at other restaurant patrons

Your nephew sounds like a nightmare and I would limit excursions unless you want to be on edge the whole time; your SIL sounds like she has parenting techniques polar opposite to yours. Does she object to you interjecting at your nephew's comments?

spuddy you and I are of the same school of thought.