To not to want to go out with my SIL and nephew

[GimmieChocolate]

Going to be a long one so get your cuppas and hobnobs ready!

My SIL has a 4 year old son who's quite, um, lively. Whenever they come to our house he has to be centre of attention, running around, jumping up and down, generally being very annoying. He interrupts, thinks it's acceptable to demand things etc... He's also the same when out.

This week I met them in town with my 10 week old DD and we went for lunch. Nephew was not only child in restaurant of his kind of age but he was the only one running up and down not sitting in his seat, being loud. We were talking about my DD and he kept saying "look at me, look at me, look what im doing, look at me" as for all of a minute it wasnt about him. He was given his options for lunch which when arrived he had cut into small pieces for him which he then ate with his fingers!! At 4!! There was a pot of mayonnaise put on the table which he just put his hand into, licked and then did same again so no one else could then really have any, and then went to touch my DD. I very quickly stopped him as yes ok I might be a bit pfb, but i didn't want Germy, grubby, sticky mayonnaise hands on my DD! He was then having his drink and flicking the straw around so I kept getting bits of juice flicked at me. I did say to him "you've just flicked your drink on me" and he just carried on. To be honest I did not enjoy the whole lunch. And by the way, the whole eating with hands thing is not unusual, I've never seen him use cutlery.

Fast forward to walking around town, I wanted to get DD a few bits of clothes and when I'd paid for them he just turned and said " can you buy me a present now" I was completely shocked that he just came out with it and said "it's not polite to ask for things" to which he replied "don't be silly yes it is so can you buy me a present" I obviously didn't buy him anything but he went on and on about it until he got into a strop!

We then all went into another shop where SIL got him a paddling pool but that wasn't good enough, no, he had a full on tantrum as she wouldn't buy him any other toys from in there. I was mortifiyingly embarrassed to be seen with them if I'm honest.

She wants to meet up regularly so she can see my DD, her niece, but I really do not want to be out with her DS. That behaviour is quite normal for him and I find it embarrassing and just quite unacceptable for a child to behave. If it was a one off I could understand, but he's like it every time I've seen him!

Am I really BU that I don't want to be out with him?

And Spuddy, I don't think anyone on here has said that flicking drinks is acceptable...

Musing on this, DD (now7) is top of her class, top of the merit roll, school councillor etc etc but has never been taken on clothes shopping trips! The vast majority of her life has been spent in child centric situations (full time nursery from five months, weekends and holidays doing things the children enjoy and making jobs fun.) If I take her out to meet an adult friendsbthen she is fully involved in the conversation.
So has she been indulged to the point of bad behaviour? She can exhibit some tricky behaviour at times, especially when talking to her little brother but I can categorically say that, in our experience so far, putting the children at the centre of our lives has not let to them being "brats."

Yup, it was directed at you. You seem to be very opinionated and inflexible. For many people having a child is like having a personality transplant. And how do you know it is the children who get constant attention who show the ill 'affects'? My cousin, who shares your approach, pays little attention to her dcs when out. She drags them around, expects them to sit quietly and unamused, and then gets irritable with them when they interrupt her. Her dcs are extremely annoying because they are desperate for attention but can only get negative attention. I know she used to think my children were too indulged but now her dh often comments that our dcs are better behaved - simply because when they talk to us we acknowledge them and we try to make sure that outings are pleasant for them too.

"My point was why? why does everything have to be 'fun' for a 4yo?"

Why should anyone organise an outing that will be boring and unpleasant for one of the people going?

Spuddybean, unless you have young children yourself, you cannot possibly know how you would react to certain situations. Saying come back in a few years time, might be lazy, but is far easier than detailing why most mums who have experience of 4yr old children are saying exactly the same. Believe me, I had ideas of things my children would never do and how they would behave. For the most part they are incredibly well behaved children, but they, like all children, have their moments where I wish the ground would swallow me up they are more challenging.

So, rather than say come back in 4yrs time again. I will recall a situation - When DD was about 3mth old I saw a mum trying to hold her DD's hand (and a pushchair) and the DD was screaming to her very frazzled mum 'Get off, GET OFF, you are hurting me... STOP!' and I thought poor child and hoisted my judgy pants up. Fast forward 3.5 years, and I had DS in a pram, and DD tried to let go of my hand to chase a balloon. I grabbed her hand more tightly (may have actually hurt her, but I'd rather she got a tight hand squeeze than got hit by a car) and she screamed the exact same words I had heard years earlier... So, of course I was wrong to judge!

I do completely agree though, I would not accept DD flicking her straw or throwing food. Ever.

OP, you weren't just describing bad behaviour though...

We were talking about my DD and he kept saying "look at me, look at me, look what im doing, look at me" as for all of a minute it wasnt about him

That is a pretty mean thing to say about a 4yr old, particularly considering he is your DN.

I also agree with clemetteattlee, you label the behaviours, not the child.

And, on that note. I am more judgy about people who use the word "brats" to describe children.
Top of the the clem list of bad parenting are parents who insult their children; high on the list of crap adults are people who describe children as "brats", "shits" or "proto-oiks"

Yep - judgey.

He's four and four year old's have tantrums and demand presents (yes I agree it's up to parents to curb/manage that behaviour).

You wait til you have a walking, talking, willful human being on your hands and see if everything runs smoothly all the time.

People are right to say 4yo play up, but the problem is not that he did but that there was no checks on that. My ds might try to stick his hand in the mayo but that doesn't mean I'd let him and sooner or later the corrections would sink in, sooner with some kids, later with others. The corrections have to be there though for the lesson to eventually be learnt.

I wouldn't allow my ds to run about in a restaurant, I would use various tactics to prevent it, but I wouldn't just sit back while it went on, and of, as can be the case, the child just isn't going to sit still, I would draw a line and remove from the venue. I wouldn't just take the path of least resistance and watch it all unfold.

the problem isn't that the child is doing 4yo things it is that he constantly does and his parent is sitting back and letting him get on with it, from what the OP says.

maybe she isn't confident in her authority as a parent, maybe she doesn't care, maybe she thinks it is cute. Who knows, I wouldn't want to be around them much either though.

YANBU - see them in situations where the worst of this can be contained and leave it at that. Or see them seperately, her for the social and your nephew so you can be a good influence and express your love for him as an aunt would want to.

Exactly, athing - you wouldn't expect an adult to have to go on an unpleasant outing and be ignored too.

X-post trying about making outings fun for children who will be present.

And actually, I do try to make everything fun for my 4 year old. It's not hard with a little imagination - kids that age will enjoy the most boring and mundane task if you make it into a game and engage with them.

Do you realise what you have said, he should behave and understand what is expected, and then said you plan carefully to ensure your baby never cries. Surely you can't have both, if you accommodate and plan when do they ever learn?

Well as others would say - in a pub bore style response - maybe you should come back when she's 15 and see what she's like then!

Different children, of course, require different levels of attention. I was a low maintenance only child and treated like an adult from small (which i think is wrong tbf). But i would happily read a newspaper and have conversations with adults in a restaurants at 4/5 and be expected to sit quietly and nicely often till past midnight. My parents never made any kind of special arrangements for me.

There has to be a happy medium.

But OP has said a few times he was not ignored!

Mayyyybe he is a badly behaved kid? Do they exist? that doesn't mean it is his fault, but still is it so unlikely that he has never been taught normal manners and so never uses them?

OP says it is standard behaviour - I don't think anyone denies a bored 4yo might be a pita but if he is like this anytime anywhere - what then?

My DN was like that at 4, and now is lovely aged 5, it's just a difficult age. I wouldn't be so hasty to judge while your baby is still so young TBH.

There was another thread very recently where someone was asking of it was reasonable for a mum to get her 4yo child to wait till she finished her sentence with her before switching her attention to the child.

Almost everyone said a 4yo should be able to wait a minute while a sentence is finished so as not to interrupt the conversation rudely.

Now this thread seems to be going the other way entirely.

I'm entitled to my opinion of friends child, you think I should say pleasent things about her if I really dont think them? Why? I have never been mean to her DD in any way, have bitten my tongue when she's been incredibly rude to me and would never want to hurt my friends feelings by tellingg her I can't stand her daughter. I never said I was being reasonable, I was just giving my opinion!

athing because life isn't always fun all the time and they need to learn that. Also you may HAVE to do things with your 4yo present - like buy jeans i find that boring at the best of times . I will have to get on with my day to day life with my child accompanying me it is as simple as that. Not everyday can be an adventure.

That comment about "I suppose someone will be along to online diagnose ADHD" is just so shitty, noone had even mentioned ADHD, and it's attitudes like that which put ALL behaviour down to "brattishness" which must make life hellishly difficult for people going out with children who actually do have ADHD. Just hate that that was thrown into the debate like some Daily Mail comment.

And no, I don't think this boy has ADHD.

Spuddy, was that to me? There are two tryings on the thread so its a bit cnofusing. If it is, I was trying to gently point out that it doesn't always work out quite how you plan. I agree with you when you say that some behaviours will always be unacceptable, I agree at the behaviours that you pick out completely.

Its just it isn't always that easy, as I've said my SIL had the same views about children in restaurants and is much stricter than I am. My DN is lovely, but he can be difficult and it isn't due to his parents letting him get away with it, that is just how he is at that age, I'm sure that he will get it. For balance, there are meals when the whole family is sat in a restaurant for a meal and all four GC behave beautifully. My children manage it most of the time, TBH its a mixture of requiring certain behaviours, planning so that we have stuff to occupy them and a bit lof luck with their personalities.

Op, do something child friendly with him, I know that kids shouldn't have the world revolve around them but for the sake of a quiet life when you meet up its is easier. Maybe take a long term view, in a few years time having all the cousins meet up and play is lovely, they occupy eachother and the parents can get on and have a nice meal, chat. I wouldn't jeopardise that by not meeting up now.

OP, does your SIL stop / attempt to stop him behaving badly?

If OP had seen the child for one meeting or a snapshot window of behaviour then yes, judgey pants akimbo. But she has known him for 4 years and says this is standard stuff, the behaviour he showed might be understandable as a bad day, not as standard without any attempt from the parent to correct though.

Spuddy - I have to do

Jenner, who the opposite. No-one has said the behaviour was desirable . Mine do that thing of squeezing my hand when they want to speak and then I squeeze back periodically until I have finished my conversation so they know I am acknowledging them but don't allow interruptions.
So much black and white parenting here.

Spuddy, I love the fact that you are projecting forward four years and imagining your life with an unknown human. Everyday CAN be an adventure if you make it so. That is enrichment not spoiling.

And as to not liking the word 'brat' being used to describe children, I like to call a spade a spade.

Clemette I know. no-one is condoning the behaviour but many seem to be saying the OP is unreasonably expecting her dn to be an angel on this outing, while the OP is saying it is the lack of intervention and constant nature of it (not just this outing) which is the problem.

Spuddy - I have to do plenty of boring jobs with my 4 yo, 2.5 yo and newborn.

Life is much more pleasant for me all of us if I take everyone's needs, abilities and preferences into consideration.

OP get a grip!

Maybe your SIL needs to step up and set more boundaries etc.

But all of what your DN was doing is fairly normal.

The flicking of the drink - it just needs and adult to say no please don't do that. If he continues take it away. Likewise the mayo - take it off him. Wipe his hand with a baby wipe so he can touch his cousin.

Children are not perfect, they will do silly things e.g. Throw sand/ get paint all over the floor etc it is how we deal with it that matters.

If you are genuinely worried about a lack of discipline in your DN fair enough.

But please be aware children are individuals and some are easy going and respond well to being told what to do. Others not so much.

My two DS's are totally different, with DS2 (3) being much harder work.