To not want nail polish on my 4yo!

[HipHopOpotomus]

I suspect I'm going to be told IABU but I've got to ask.

DD1 is 4. When she goes to a friends house to play she invariably comes home with nail varnish on. It seems that it's very normal for her 4yo friends to paint their nails, yes ever scarlet red, though just as often pink or purple etc. Many of her (girl) friends at nursery have painted nails all the time.

I don't like it - for lots of reasons including:

• I think it is PART of the sexualisation of young girls which as a Mum of girls concerns me greatly. It's make up, its about feeling pretty and girlie - and I feel it is inappropriate for a 4yo. 14yo sure, 9yo, perhaps gritted teeth but 4yo is too young to be starting down this road.

• the parents of her friends simply assume that it's OK. In their eyes it's harmless girlie fun I guess. This I could understand on an older child (though I still might not like it), but on a 4yo!! (I'm being a fuddy duddy??)

• DD then asks for her nails to be painted all the time. I have on occasion given in and allowed her to paint her toenails (i.e. twice in a year). I use a silver glitter polish. I'm not entirely happy about this, but I have done it. (This makes me realise that the nail painting at friends homes has been happening since she was 3 )

• I then have to use highly toxic nail polish to get the stuff off & in the meantime its all chipped etc anjd looks nasty. I really don't like rubbing polish remover all over my little girls hands &/or feet (I have pretty much let the silver nail polish on her toes chip off). Also as soon as it comes off I then get constantly pestered to paint her nails. I say no (with the 2 exceptions when I have done her toenails silver glitter before a holiday & before a dress up party)

• I object as a feminist, to young girls being encouraged to use make-up, or being subtly manipulated to feeling somehow 'special' wearing makeup. And it's clearly a 'girl' thing, to paint nails. I don't see any boys queueing up for it.

We've been to a couple of nursery/primary school fairs recently and they have nail polish stands with queues of young girls lining up - it's like face painting now. It's become the norm. I think this is sad and ghastly. Such young girls becoming mini-me's to their Mums.

I think a lot of this is about the Mum - 'dressing up' little girls. DD is NOT a living doll FFS!! She is not here to make YOU (friends Mum) feel better about yourself by "pleasing" young girls by painting them with toxic shit.

I believe in protecting and fostering childhood and childhood innocence for as long as I possibly can. Its a challenge in todays society and I really feel that this nail painting crap bites into that.

AIBU? Am I being unrealistic?

I wouldn't do it myself to DD but I wouldn't mind if she went to friend's house and they did it, I just wouldn't make such a big deal of it

I honestly think that if the Feminist movement could be toppled by nail polish, we are all proper f*cked.

As many have said, your position is fatally flawed as you have executed the painting to the mails yourself.

For the future, I would suggest that before you let your DD go to a play date you know the mum sufficiently so she knows your general parenting rules or keep DD at home.

To the mail = of the nails!

I disagree my position is fatally flawed as I painted her toes twice. Everyone is allowed to change their mind surely? I initially responded to a request without thinking much about it (not uncommon for busy parents). Never did I imagine it would turn out to be such a big trend among young kids, let alone DD. After repeat requests and the playdate painting etc I've subsequently had time and reason to think about it.

It's ridiculous to think by doing something twice, several months apart, you must therefore stick to that position unswervingly forever and can never regret the act, or change future behaviour.

That does seem to be the way many posters here think - in which case the world is stuffed. Try something, don't like it? Too bad - you are bound to do it forever

You didn't answer my point about the toxicity.

Emmielu, I absolutely agree with your post on creative play. It is no more something to be worried about than pretending to be a pirate and saying 'Arrrr me hearties' all day, stumping around on a pretend wooden leg. A huge amount of pretend play involving role play will include dressing up in whatever is available, wearing a parent's or grandparent's or older sibling's shoes, because in a lot of children, pretending to be an older version of themselves also serves as a way to identify with one particular gender.

If you're not worried about her pretending to organise an exercise class, why sweat the nail polish? I am asking this question from a feminist pov. Society puts a premium on the slim, fit figure in women. Do you want your DD buying into that?

'You should love your DD regardless of how girlie she is
That is possibly the most inane thing that has been send on this thread and it's bloody insulting. What a stupid stupid thoughtless thing to say. You think from my posts here that I love my DD less because she is occasionally 'girlie'? '

Of course you love her no less, but it's not inane.

Children can sense when something they are choosing or enjoying does not match the expectations of a parent. In frowning at her choice, be the frown ever so slight, and in disregarding the pleasure she gets from having her nails polished because you consider it to have a lower play value than other things she does (like jetting off on adventures, organising exercise class) you risk having her second guess herself when it comes to pretend play. The same dynamic happens when parents of boys try to push Lego on them and keep them from playing with dolls.

Your DD came top of the class for creative play? Have I misread that? That at 4 she is judged and ranked on how she plays?

I must have got the wrong end of the stick.

When did schools start grading kids on their ability to play?.
I have now truly heard it all! Top of the class

It always comes off in the pool. Always does on me too and I swim a lot too. They bash their hands around a lot so it is falling off practically before the pool finishes it! I don't tend to hit my feet on the lane ropes so my toenails stay intact but I frequently catch them on my teammates / lane ropes so it does come off, regardless of how expensive the brand too. Whoever said swimming wasn't a contact sport was lying ;-)

I'm sorry op honestly I am it wasn't until just now I re-read it & thought that what I put isn't what was meant to come across. I meant you should accept how your DD wants to play or be. Really really sorry

** catch hands on lane ropes...

Hmm, yep everyone can change their mind but you see if I thought something deserved a 5 bullet point objection, particularly if my actions were counter-feminist, sexualising kids and toxic, I probably wouldn't have done it myself a second time.

Glitter, you need to try Shellac

YANBU
I have a dd with another on the way and I will not be letting them paint there nails, or play with make up.
My SIL paints both my nieces (7 & 4) and has done for the 5 yrs I've been in the family. Wrong.
All the time in the world to do that when they are older.

I already have more nail varnish than most counters! I've now actually got the newest one one that I bought a few months back as my nails are now decent again. DD has already tried it out, one stylish per-schooler....

emmielu thank you - I understand (smile)

ruby she does have sausages at school dinners & at the odd bbq. I don't buy ham anymore no - haven't for a while. No chorizo or anything either (sob!!). We had some bacon on fathers day.

I don't burn candles in the house, use air fresheners, and I use mainly eco style cleaners, shampoos etc and clothes wash. I have an aromastone to heat essential oils occasionally. This is all counterbalanced by living in central London (yikes) but I do try and minimise adding unnecessary crap into our home environment.

I wear makeup (nothing heavy), and perfume. I'm an adult and I choose to. DD can make her own decisions when she's an adult or at least has a few years on 4.

I'm not purist my any means, but I do try and keep as many unnecessary chemicals within my range of choice & control, out of daily family life.

I guess with the nails I didn't really think about it the first time. She asked, I thought silver sparkly nails were sweet and did it. Slowly I started to realise that painting young kids nails was hugely popular, bit of a thing, and I start seeing it everywhere - I'd never noticed before. Then she started coming home from playmates with them. DP usually picks her up so I didn't see until she was home. That then gets me thinking and I recall the toxic issue and do a bit of research. Plus she is then asking all the time and talking about x has this colour, can I do her toes, and basically banging on about it all the time. She would happily have her nails painted all the time which apart from any other objection, is not the way to grow healthy strong nails. It was no longer a once in a while thing, and it became an issue for me.

I guess it's all part of growing up - she is 4 but she is out there in the world and being influenced by others. Not just with nails, with some really amazing stuff too. Luckily kids aren't one tracked minded and she has plenty of other things to focus on, play and do.

I will in future tell parents I prefer that she doesn't have her nails painted. It never occurred to me that this would be something I would have to say, but clearly I do.

The EU has banned DBP and limited the amount of formaldehyde and toluene that can be used in nail polish.

If you want to indulge your own desire to keep your DD in an environment as free of outside contaminants as possible, would you consider allowing her to have fun with nail polish by:
Suncoat Products
Honeybee Gardens Nail Enamels
Acquarella
OPI
Peacekeeper Nail Paints
Sante Nail Enamels
Zoya Nail Polish

The Klutz Nail Art Kit for children features several bottles of peel off colours. It claims to be non-toxic.

It is amazing how a child will find the things to like or be interested in that really show you that you are two different people.

I dont see any boys queuing up for it..

Try telling that to my twelve year old ds then. He painted his toe nails a bright red then went swimming. He thought it was very funny and hes a really boyish boy!

I cant quite believe how hypocritical you are. You are painting your dds nails yourself! Youhave lost your argument.

And what's all this crap about it sexualizing little girls. Its just changing mail colour not making little lolitas out of them

Shit, so maybe I shouldn't admit that my dd's (6 & 11 yo) have gel twinkle toes on.
That dd1 has purple hair, regularly straightens her hair and is having a full french set of gel on her fingers in the next week.
dd2 loves make-up and has been practising with her finger to ensure she can apply her own mascara (which I'm sure you'll all be very proud that I don't let her do, I do it for her ). Dd2 has her hair curled regularly and is having bright pink streaks in her hair for the summer.

On the flip side, they are both quite happy to get muddy (even if dd2 insits on wearing a dress with her wellies!) and enjoy doing everyday things such as playing on bikes, playing with dolls, sylvanians etc.

It's not a big deal in this house, the biggest protest I get is when dd2 goes to show her daddy the 'full face' of make up she has on before a party and bless him, dh just rolls his eyes at me.

I think with children they want to be what they perceive as being grown up. Maybe that entails wearing make up, maybe it means wearing daddy's sunglasses. To my dd's it means make up, hair being done, but it also means that when they go to the gym with me they want to book into the mini zumba class, because "mummy does zumba".

As long as you don't make a big fuss I don't suppose it really matters. . .

HipHopOpotamus; I totally understand that you are unhappy with the nail varnish thing, but will your dd be upset is all of her friends are getting their nails cone and she can't have hers done?

www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=E-2012-006305&format=XML&language=EN

mathanxiety yes it does seem as if the EU have acknowledged that toxicity in nail varnishes is unacceptable too and legislated. In theory there are now meant to be EU restrictions on ingredients. Link above is for a recently submitted question to EU parliament - it suggests that things aren't as they seem.

Over the weekend I took a quick look around in the shops - many stocked US manufactured nail polishes and don't visibly list ingredients. Also, if like me you tend to hang onto stuff, any old polishes will probably be manufactured prior to the change.

Years ago I brought some 'non-toxic' polish. Problem was it never set!!

hiltontribe I have talked with DD re nail polish the last few days - she's not that bothered. If she REALLY wants some, she can put it on her birthday list and I'll look into the wash off stuff.

and it's not just the recently 'banned' chemicals that are cause for concern. Below article from the ecologist. You know the sparkly mica - chances are it's mined by children :( :

www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/370100/behind_the_label_nail_polish.html

"And the rest...
But even without these ingredients (and many manufacturers are trying to clean up their acts) nail polish is a pretty evil mixture. One of its key ingredients is nitrocellulose, a long-lasting, film-forming agent derived from cellulose. Sounds almost natural, right? Well, bear in mind that before nitrocellulose was put into nail polish, it was used as a component of automobile paint by chemists. It also an ingredient in the explosives used in fireworks and dynamite.

Nitrocellulose is an entirely man-made substance, not found in nature. Its vapours are irritating to skin, eyes and lungs and because of its widespread use it is a fairly common industrial pollutant found in our water supplies.

Most of the colours used in nail polish are synthetic colours associated with a range of neurotoxic and carcinogenic effects. Although nail polishes do sometimes make use of natural colouring ingredients like mica to give them sparkle and shimmer, don't let yourself feel too comfortable. Mica is a naturally occurring substance but mining it is dangerous and relies heavily on the labour of women and children."

I think if you let this focus on toxins and environmental contamination go too far, your only option will be to find a cave for yourself. A little knowledge if you let it can lead you into a scary world full potential danger.

Practically every chemical you find in domestic items that are mass-manufactured anywhere will also be found in other items that you would not consider domestic. As an example, there are ingredients in a lot of makeup and moisturisers that are also found in rust removers. Toluene is also found in silicone sealants, printer ink, glue, rubber products. There are ingredients in a lot of moisturisers, make-up and body washes that are also found in shellac, solvents and anti-freeze. Mineral oil is processed from petroleum. Propylene glycol is found in brake and hydraulic fluid as well as paint and floor wax and nearly all makeup, hair dye, body washes, lotions, after shave lotion, deodorant. It breaks down protein and cellular structure.

My point here is that chemicals and compounds from all sorts of raw materials, extracted under varying conditions of ecological soundness and social responsibility, using all sorts of non-renewable energy sources to process, are found in tens of thousands of different products. Where would you start if you wanted to live your life untouched by those chemicals? Where would such an effort lead?

All exposure doesn't necessarily lead to all the problems each ingredient potentially has. You can only control an infinitesimal part of your exposure to what is in the environment.