For these to be the conditions on which DS (age 6) is allowed to play at someone's house?

[becstarsky]

Just laid down the law to DS about this then wondered if AIBU because this is something that has come up over and over again.... I actually think I might have even posted about it on MN before but can't remember. It's been such a saga.

DS is friends with a kid in his class and they've been friends for two years. Nice-ish kid, nothing much against him. Kid keeps inviting DS to play at his house after school. I've told DS that the child's mother or father has to ask either me or DH if it's okay - and that they have to be known to me. ie. the first conversation we have can't be 'Can your DS come over to mine?'. They have to say 'Oh hello, you're becstarskykids Mum, aren't you? How are you?' and we have to chat and THEN they say 'Wouldn't it be nice for them to play together?' and then we exchange numbers. So that I know them a little bit, just have a bit of a feel for what they're like. And, also the playdate has to be reciprocated - they come over to ours (with kids Mum in tow), or maybe play in the park near ours.

But the family are very strict Muslim and for this reason apparently this kids mum and dad won't speak to me (because I am western female) and kid isn't allowed at our house. I'm 99% sure this is the reason - I know that they speak English. So the invites keep on coming but only via DS from his friend (they are both 6). The kid is very upset that DS hasn't come to play at his house, he has approached me about it at school gates and doesn't understand when I keep telling him that his mum has to speak to me before DS can go to his house and that at age 6, DS can't go to play in a house with people who I don't know.

So firstly AIBU and more importantly - how can I manage this kid's disappointment and DSs disappointment about it? They would love to play together outside of school hours. I alternate between feeling sad for the kid, feeling liberal angst at feeling sad for the kid, feeling exasperated with the kid collaring me every time I'm at the school gates, feeling exasperated with the kid's parents not understanding that it's not reasonable to expect me to send my child into a house where I"m not welcome? And it's been going on for ages.

Thoughts? Flames? AIBU?

To ALL those saying they would notallow their child to play with the family...HAVE YOU NOT HEARD OF GIVE AND TAKE? This is hw intigration begins....it is how cultures learn to mix together.

My sisters case was a first in their small commuity and the head teacher told my sister how happy it had made her to see the children being allowed to mix together as for years their has been a divide.

TheEnglishWoman why is it weird to want to have some contact with a parent before your small child gaily goes round to their house for tea? I don't think she was implying there is a set text for it!

Also - she has made an effort and been blanked for it.

Give and take has to happen from both sides. It seems that the OP has tried on the 'give' and the other mother has not reciprocated with some 'take'.

Interestingly the woman my sister has had this with does not cover her face...but my sister has the impression that she is discouraged to get familiar with others not in her family or who share the religion.

However...the fact that her son is now allowed to play with my nephew...white christian...indicates these barriers are coming down. the commuity is a small and largely working class one...

My sister tried too...she smiled at the Mum etc...the Mum lowered her gaze. BUT my sister accepted that this was the way the woman lives...and that she is trying in her own way to allow her child to integrate. So my sister chose to trust the family and allow her son over there...he is 8 by the way...the boys are excellent friends and the child is very well mannered too.

The op didn't say she had tried to speak to them in the OP ...she said it down the page

I would send a formal invite - get your son to write a note - if that get's no response then stand close to them and the next time their child asks you say loudly and pointedly that you have invited him but his parents declined and it is up to them

YANBU to not wish your child to go anywhere on the say so of another 6 years old - I do think you are being slightly UR to assume it is due to their religion or your 'western' ism

I think you should ask the teacher or Head teachers advice OP....that's what my sister did.

I find it completely normal that the op would want to have had a conversation with someone before allowing her young child to go to their house.

Regarding not speaking to you because of being muslim, does this actually happen, i mean is it common? I could imagine a rule where they weren't allowed to speak to a man but another woman!?

'when I walk past their house they have posters in their windows about atrocities against Muslims committed by the west'

I wouldn't let my kid go for this reason alone

The blanking thing would totally put me off.

I would give up, seriously, it's never going to develop into anything. DS1 had a muslim friend, my god, trying to get him round for a playdate was near on impossible. It took months of arranging and when I spoke to the mum she said that her husband had to give permission and she was not able to do so. The boy eventually came round, wouldnt eat a single thing despite putting out veggie stuff and of course DS1 never got invited back and never would have. At least the mum spoke to me and if this family that you speak of have such posters up in their windows I would seriously consider whether I wanted my child to go round there anyway.

I also think it may be shyness over language with an adult

We have a Muslim girl who comes over with her older sister as a chaperone....

I think collaring an intermediary-another mum who speaks both languages? Or go to speak to mum with the dcs and get her son to translate? I think you need to be blunt about what is acceptable to you in terms of communication to enable boys to spend time together. Also reassure that you wouldn't feed her son non-halal foods/ do unsuitable activities

I have made efforts so that my dd can have friends over, in terms of perserverance, reassurance and inviting other family members etc BUT I don't think I would be ok about her going round to play at a house where the parents won't speak to me We have a lot of patents at school with very basic English and very traditional set ups, but none of them are less than polite and friendly

Wouldn't you worry about if/how they would contact you if your dc was injured etc etc?

Just wondering if she was completely covered could she have had headphones on and not heard and not assumed you were talking to her- she might be shy too - just a suggestion.
If she is like that it could well be that she is shy or embarrased or doesn't speak the language or there is something else going on - please let's not all assume she's being rude.
I think it's worth the note in the bookbag but rememeber some people just don't do play dates and that is allowed too. She may have told her DS he's not allowed to invite children over but he's 6 and that's waht 6 yo do.

Book bag note looks good, I have done similar for DS at Kindergarten when he wanted to play with kids who were dropped off and picked up at different times, so I never saw the parents in passing.

PooPooInMyToes it isn't common at all. At DS nursery he was the only non-Muslim child and I got on with the other mums like a house on fire - am still friends with them.

'when I walk past their house they have posters in their windows about atrocities against Muslims committed by the west'

I find that rather scary!

Why would they chose to live in a country which they feel (strongly enough to have posters up about it) have committed atrocities against those of their religion?

Sorry i missed the poster thing - I don't think it's unreasonable to assume she comes from a family who doesn't like westerners and therefore is not going to be keen to invite you round.
Just explain to DS that soem people don't do playdates but he can still be friends at school, don't think you need to exlain the whole reason.

i have never heard of a muslim not speaking to someone because they were muslim.

I also wouldnt let my child go to a house where i had no communication with the parents. I find it weird others would.

I have also tried with my dds best friend to get her and her mum to come to park with us, have written down my number and address which is few doors away from park, and said whenever you are going knock for us so they can play together etc, and have had no response.

I am visibly Muslim and so is the other family, so religion really doesnt have anything to do with it.

I've had situations like that, and never really achieved a satisfactory resolution despite trying the notes in bags thing.

I have never found it possible to arrange playdates with non-English-speaking mums, nor would I think it desirable to do so with a 6 year old (I had to call an ambulance for a visting child on a playdate once - I would not have wanted to have either side of that conversation with a mum who only spoke fragments of English).

It's sad but after all a playdate after school between two children who see each other in the playground five days a week is not the be all and end all.

whackamole it isn't weird to want to have some contact with a parent before your small child goes round to their house for tea - it's weird to insist that the first contact can't include the invitation. It sounds like a "courtship" or not kissing before the second date type rule :) Your child has said "Mum can I invite X for tea?" You say "Yes, but in about 3 weeks, tomorrow I will approach X's mum and make small talk, not mentioning that you would like to invite X for tea, as that would be inappropriate/ moving too fast, then the next day we'll just say hello, play it cool, on Friday maybe we'll chat a bit more, then on Monday we can actually issue the invite" :o

That is what I found odd. If my dd wants to invite somebody over I would think nothing of mentioning that fact in my first conversation, I would just make it clear the parent was welcome to come too if they wanted to...

I like the spokennerds idea of asking the head teacher for advice.

OP suggested note sounds good, except for the fact that if she won't talk to you she's hardly going to come on a playdate with her son - unless you both stand separately and don't talk to each other.

If you really do want DS to play with this boy, and/or you really do want to facilitate this boy playing with your DS, you will need to accommodate the boy's mother - you may question why you have to bend to her will and not she to yours, but your call on how badly you don't want to upset either boy.

Why not just offer to take her boy with your DS to the park, ask if that's okay. Say it would be lovely if she came along too, but if she doesn't want to that'd be fine. Relationships change: who knows, maybe she will come round in time as she sees her buy really enjoying your company, maybe the boys will drift apart...anything could happen down the line.

Incidentally, I don't believe that not talking to Westerners is a Muslim thing (I'm not Muslim, but struggle to believe this from what I do know of Islam). I suspect it's more a cultural thing going on in the family, they just stick to their own.

I'm glad I raised this - really interested to hear everyone's viewpoints. Bathtime for DS now and a bit busy tomorrow, but will come back to thread later in the weekend. Thanks all so far, appreciate all the thoughts and insights.

the posters wouldn;t bother me at all - unless they said 'vote Tory'

seriously it is a legitimate view point which they are entitled to

I wouldn;t stop my child going to tea with a Tory though

I was friendly with a mum at my child's nursery who had become Muslim some years earlier to marry her husband. She was keen to have my dc over and was very friendly.

As time went on though she told me more and more things about her husband that built an impression of him that was of a very arrogant man who wouldn't be told what to do by anyone or take advice.

For eg. She was pregnant and needed medical attention due to complications. The hospital asked her to stay in this country rather then going on holiday and get medical help, but he was fuming that they tried to tell him what to do. So he took his wife away on holiday. She didn't have any say in this. The place they went to didn't have medical facilities and by the time they returned the baby had died.

The same happened when their other child was due to start school. He was told the child would lose their school place if they were not in the country for the first couple of months of the term. So he took the family away whilst ranting about how dare anyone tell him what to do, and the child came back to no school place and had to go to a not very good school many miles away, a journey of course that his wife has to do.

I ended up feeling that if my child went to her home the wife would have no say in anything. If there was an incident or accident and she felt my child needed to come home or medical attention, that the choice wouldn't actually be hers but his. And she wouldn't have the authority in her household to make that decision herself. So i would be leaving my child with the husband who i didn't know at all rather they the wife i did a bit.

That's what concerns me about situations where the wife has to leave all decisions to her husband. You need to know and trust him as much as you do her.