To feel physically sick......

[frannie1981]

that ITV documentary on now is treating cold blooded murderers as normal human beings. They are showing no remorse but detailing their crimes, I think it's awful they are even being given airplay, done get me started on the perks they have (Christmas dinner) etc. The poor families of their victims is what I think.....

far from a child and not everything is about you im afraid, seems like your ok to offend me as much as you want and its ok and something i didnt even say to you, your playing on. i already said what a horrific thing it would be to happen so why would i say that to you. its not back peddling its called clearing facts that were miss interpreted.

Me too. I have to take a client to a drug appointment in the morning. Take care Lurking

"A lady on another thread got a PM telling her 'not to breed any more.'"

Seriously? :( Mind you I saw someone getting accused of being feckless for leaving an abusive partner - I just don't understand some people

You take care too Sooty, off to go find a happier thread to make excuses to my DP that I really need to work on this assignment

Thank you for telling me what you do. You're a classy lady. I really hope to be like you when I'm older. Have a wonderful day/evening!

Neither do I. I actually joined MN after hearing it was 'a nest of vipers' because I thought 'thank GOD! I can be honest!.' And I never really experienced the 'nest of vipers' thing. I think tough love is good for the soul, plus if you really need support, no matter how stupid your question this is a really loving community.

Unfortunately there will always be cruel people who like to feed off of others pain, if they didn't I'd be out of a job!

Can't believe someone would say that to someone leaving an abusive marriage. Sometimes you do just wonder..Is this board seriously all female?

I could never be a foot cop. Hats off to them.

Ah went to bed then this got heated.

It's a very emotive subject, I too am close to those who have lost Someone in this way. Their grief has led to a lock and throw away the key mentality. Lurking YABU to gang up on TT. As educated adults, which we are all claiming to be, you have to be understand others may have different opinions, which although you may feel are wrong, are just that a difference of opinion. For all your nasty posts about TTs lack of understanding/literacy you have shown yourself to be narrow minded (masquerading as a liberal). She apologised for the fact her post was misinterpreted by you and you continuously berated
her. I agree with her sentiment (and there are caveats for mental illness) that murder - not necessarily lesser crimes - should not result in degrees and pets. Am equally not saying gruel/cold showers but I believe that if you willingly commit such a crime you should lose entitlement to luxuries. I do understand the thinking behind the bored prisoner is more of a threat argument but do think that this is undermined by the argument made by the morally wrong brigade that you can't possibly take another's rights to education blah blah.

What some people on this thread seem to fail to understand is that prison provides some luxuries to keep prisoners calm for the simple reason that the they are (by the nature of imprisonment) deprived of human necessities.

Human beings (like other animals) have certain needs: these include (as for other sociable animals) the need to socialise with our own species. Shoaling fish who are kept singly often develop very odd behaviour patters and often become aggressive. Dogs who are kept without interaction from either humans or other dogs become vicious. Humans who are kept in isolation for too long become insane. Often violently insane.

It is in the nature of the prison punishment that people do have to be kept in isolation in a somewhat risky way- risky because it is not what our species is designed to cope with. But the guards stilll have to deal with those prisoners. Can anyone blame the prison governors for trying to ward off as much violent insanity as they can by means of distraction? What is a luxury to me, outside and free to see as many people as I like, is very much a cheap substitute to a prisoner in his cell.

If you fed them on biscuits, that would seem a dreadful luxury to many posters here. But what if they got no other food- would you still be outraged over the biscuits? Coronation Street and the x-box are only a luxury if you have other ways of accessing human society.

What Frannie said. Let's all bully someone who has a different opinion to us

Try arguing against things people actually say, rather than things you have made up, OP, makes debate much more real and interesting.
And apologise to lurking, there's a dear.

Nobody said anything about "you can't deprive anyone a right to education". Adults don't have a right to education, do they, so your argument is specious from the start. Try and grasp the notion that by educating them you are both giving them something useful to do with their time and helping to prevent recidivism. And try and appreciate that its the very fact some of these people are so badly educated to begin with is part and parcel of how they ended up in prison in the first place.

Oh, and to whoever said they would personally happily torture prisoners, you're a sick puppy who likely should be inside yourself.

Well said, Cory.

FWIW, I don't think ToughTed intended to upset Lurking in a personal manner - unless some posts have been deleted.

I also think that the knee jerk reaction to this issue from a lot of people is that murderers should suffer whilst in prison, as if that would make their victim's families feel validated in some way. But most people stop their line of thought at that point and don't appreciate that the issue is deeper and more complex. In a debate such as this, I'd expect educated people to be able to appreciate that a more logical thought process is required.

I get so frustrated when people pull the "YOU SYMPATHISE WITH MURDERERS!" card, just because we don't want them to die in a dank wet hole, or even worse be executed by the State.

Prison isn't just about punishment, it's about rehabilitation. If people cannot be rehabilitated and are a danger to the public, they should be kept away from them in a safe environment for all involved (including those working with them). Someone I love very much has spent 9 months in prison for a misdemeanour and it changed his life. He was going down a very bad path and it made him turn his life around and he is a different person. THAT is what prison is for.

I found the documentary fascinating and agree that depriving prisoners of stimulation and education would be counter-productive.

I was initially a littlie bit about the budgies but then the inmate talked with compassion about his pets; how he felt it wasn't right to keep them caged all the time. If a person like that is capable of developing some feeling and empathy towards animals...well, it's a good start, isn't it?

Ruby summed up my feelings on the treatment of prisoners further up but I have always wondered if I would feel differently if I had been directly affected by a crime being committed against me or a loved one so it is interesting to see the strength that someone who has been subjected to such horrors can show.

I'm planning on watching GR because I firmly believe that most prisoners (not all, just most) are capable redemption if given the right help to change their lives.

Oh good Panda I'll have someone sane to discuss Gordon with

It's a date Ruby

Given that it's GR and set in prison, I have an idea that post-programme discussions will be taking place on AIBU rather than Chat

I shall get the in, and possibly the buns?

The man who had kicked, beaten and stamped someone to death in an attack that lasted an hour and a half seemed incapable of empathy. He showed no emotion whatsoever and, when asked if he regretted it said, 'Yes and no, wouldn't have had the opportunities to get qualifications if I hadn't.'

I can imagine my teenage DD, who was in the care system until she was 3, saying something similar. She has FAS and Attachment Disorder and seems incapable of empathy, other than on a copied superficial level.

It's a real shame that the programme didn't delve more into the prisoners' pasts, other than the guy with Asbergers.

I also saw a comment made by a teacher I know about the man with the budgies, on fb. "One skank even had budgies FFS!" I wanted to point out that looking after the budgies would have been part of his rehabilitation, but wonder if it would make any difference, as someone in the Prison Service had already told her that TVs and games consoles are given to prisoners as they calm things down and minimise attacks on prison staff.

I found the whole documentary depressing on so many levels... the horrendous crimes committed, the fact that the families of victims will probably have been watching, and the Daily Mail type knee jerk reaction that I knew would follow.

"the man who flipped and killed his wife because she flaunted her infidelity."

That was his story. His murdered wife can't give her perspective, which I think we might find is a very different version of events.

No murderer ever gives the honest, true story as they usually lack empathy, insight and compassion. I don't think this man should be able to study an Arts degree and I don't think that is torturous.

Well, we'll never know the truth Ghoulia because we weren't there and we can't read minds. However, he confessed straight away, his daughters appear to have forgiven him, and he is being punished because he is in prison serving life. I admit to feeling a bit sorry for him and I don't have a problem with him studying for an arts degree. Not allowing mental stimulation to those who need it is a form of torture in my opinion.

I think the memory and knowledge of what he did will torture him forever. His daughters have the most insight into his character, and they have forgiven him. They will never forget though... and he knows that.

If you look at these stats from 2011 you will see that overall crime is dropping ToughTed www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/14/crime-statistics-england-wales. Perhaps you should try actually looking at stats before coming out with random statments about rising crime levels and crazy scare stories.

Why do you feel
Sorry for him thefarside? Genuine question...

Panda did you watch old Gordon? I'm not sure what I think about it.

Ghoulia - he had no previous record and seemed like a gentle person who just flipped when his wife asked him for money so she could go out with her boyfriend. He seems remorseful and says he thinks about it every day.

To be honest, I also felt sorry for some of the others, especially the Asperger's man and even the one who wasn't sure if he regretted kicking a man to death because it meant he had had an opportunity to get some qualifications! The reason I felt a bit sorry for the latter is that he is clearly totally lacking in empathy, and he's therefore missing out on the full range of human emotions that make life worthwhile for the rest of us. That sounds like an empty kind of life to me.

Obviously I don't condone what any of these people did. I just think it's simplistic to say they killed someone, therefore they are evil, and therefore they don't deserve to be treated like human beings, which is what some people seem to be arguing on this thread.

My genuine question to you is, did you see anything in any of these prisoners that made you feel sad or sorry for them? Or do you think all of them are 100% bad or evil?

I share many of your feelings FarSide re some of the men featured on the programme.

The trouble is that we (including the tabloids- very much so) label these people as 'evil' or 'monsters' because it makes it easier for us if we dehumanise them. We can distance ourselves from them because they're like another species. In doing so, we can breathe a sigh of relief that we would never be capable of such a thing, nor would any of our loved ones or friends. That's dangerous thinking. These are humans for whom something has gone very badly wrong and
I think we have to confront that and acknowledge that they are 'one of us'. Otherwise how are we ever going to help people to change?